Forget about the dyno -- let's do a real "rolling road" test. How about a comparo of the Z06 and 430 doing a rolling (starting at 5 or 10 MPH) quarter mile run and a 60-140 MPH run? I'll volunteer the 430 and arrange for the communicators and the "rabbits" to do a lead-car radar surveillance sweep. Perhaps my two local friends with Z06's would volunteer their cars for the test? BTW, on the dyno comparo, the Z06 has got to be putting out more HP/TQ to the wheels than the 430. But, I'd bet that the cars would be very close in the real world tests above (neither one will be "smoking" the other) and there might even be a surprising result.
I think I know someone in LA if you are serious. If you were in Texas I would offer my Z06 up. I always love a good race and I would love to have the pleasure and honor of racing a 430. I bleed Ferrari red. I've raced a few cars in mine. Just for comparison sake when mine was stock it easily beat a Gallardo and a Murci. It walks away fairly easily from my buddies GT2 and his Viper. Now that I have headers and a tune it's rediculous. I raced a sport bike the other day which I assume by the outcome it was a 600cc. We raced several times from varied speeds and I easily pulled many car lengths on him. From 60-90 it was about 4 lengths to give you an idea.
"its more of the fun and enjoyment the car gives in how it looks, its moving art the motor sounds and driving feedback and other intangeable things, something a Vette can't get close to no matter how hard they try to look like Ferraris." Totally agreed. You pay a lot of money for these intangibles, and they are worth it to those who have the ability (and means) to appreciate them. At the end of the day, you gotta drive what moves you, what speaks to you. HP, 'ring laptimes, skidpad, etc. . . all interesting, but only tells a fraction of the story. Anyway, I'd like to see the dyno numbers as well.
The owner of my Ferrari Dealer also owns a Chevrolet dealer which is adjacent to the Ferrari store, when I went to drive a F430 he also took me for a ride in a Z06 right after. There is like many have said no comparison between the two cars, meaning the F430 is worlds better. The second I got into the car my friend who owns the store, who I will not name, pretty much admitted the 430 is a different machine, a much better one. After testing both cars back to back within 5 minutes of each other I can tell you any car enthusiast would take a 430 over the vette if they could afford it. If you truely love driveing and are passionate about it you can see and feel the difference between the two cars. If you're a corvette guy you can flame me, call bull****, do whatever I don't care but I am being as truthfull as I can be. I am probably never going to have a 430 to race you guys in, BUT i'll race you in a 599 next summer northern ohio any day. The ZO6 is awsome, I mean if you think about it I went to a Ferrari dealership with probably 20 cars, I could test any car I wanted, and the second car I went out in was the ZO6 across the street. As awsome as the ZO6 is its NOT a Ferrari and Corvette knows THIS! You don't think GM would charge 200k for a Vette if it could? Maybe then they could afford to pay their union workers +-80k a year (including benifits) to stamp boxes and drive forklifts so then maybe they would earn their multimillion dollar pensions. I would stongly encourage any Z06 with funds for a 430 to take one for a spin, I highly doubt they would go home empty handed! BTW corvette should sack up and buy an F1 team, then you guys can put those nifty plaques in vettes like in ferrari that read FIA World Chapions 1990,2000,2001,2002,2004...2006(keep your fingers crossed!)
Why are you guys squabbling over which car is faster when Road and Track already has the answer? They took six cars to the same track and tested them at the same time. The 430 out accelerate/braked, out slalomed, out cornered, out skidpaded and got around the race track faster than the Z06. I honestly hope that the 430 dynoes at a lower HP than the Z06, as it will only help those who haven't figured it out yet, that horsepower isn't everything.
In a drag race, it'd be a driver's race for sure. The vette is putting more power/tq to the wheels, but weighs a bit less. Gearing aside, it really is a driver's race. From car and driver Z06 on left, F430 on Right 40 mph: 2.2 1.8 50 mph: 2.8 2.8 60 mph: 3.6 3.5 70 mph: 4.5 4.2 80 mph: 5.5 5.4 90 mph: 6.7 6.5 100 mph: 7.9 7.9 110 mph: 9.3 9.3 120 mph: 11 11 130 mph: 12.8 13 You can pretty much tell it's down to gearing by those numbers. Although the F430 was F1 equipped, so that might (or might not) explain the differences. What I find extremely interesting (and also impressive) are the official nurburgring times for both cars. We can see the accelerations are basically equal, and we ALL know the Ferrari has MUCH better braking. Yet the Vette is 13 seconds faster around the nurburgring. They accelerate the same, the ferrari brakes better, so the vette can only be making up the time through corners. Pretty impressive, IMO. http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=476 The two are even in a straight line, the ferrari is better braking, and the vette is faster around a track. Of course I'd rather have the Ferrari for styling and experience (sound alone is enough!), but at the same time I can see that if someone did not care for any of the above and just wanted to turn laps the fastest, they'd go for the Vette. However very few people actually track their cars frequently, so those people would be a very small minority. Also, another (albeit unlikely) reason someone would prefer the vette is for the aftermarket following. There will be ways of getting 600HP out of a vette naturally aspirated - I'm sure of it. There will also be brake upgrades and suspension upgrades too. It is unlikely that there will ever be mods for the F430 besides wheels and lighting, etc. Finally, there's track use, which is sort of relevant since you will only reach these cars' limit on a track. Who's going to track a car where brakes could potentiall cost $40k to fix? The vette will be cheaper and easier to fix, and cheaper to run, and is more disposable should something happen. I can't really discuss reliability as Ferraris see 3k miles a year or less and very few see thousands of miles of track use, so we don't know yet. As you can see, the only person who would want a vette over a F430 is an absolute die hard track whore who plans on driving the wheels of their car and adding mods. This is like 3% of the people who buy sports cars.
No such thing. The track is so long, traffic and weather so variable, comparisons are meaningless, much less "official". A shorter track provides much more controlled variables, although again if it is not the same day/same driver it doesn't mean much. Gary
Yeah, but Mike, the same month Car & Driver got the opposite results at a different venue. I don't live or die by magazine articles, a test drive in either car will tell you which one you want pretty quickly. Gary
From that issue of C&D: "On the track, the F430 was the slowest of our group but the most fun to drive. (If it had had the Pirelli P Zero Corsa race tires that Schumann fitted after our test, it likely would have been faster.) The F430 has the most entertaining and predictable chassis of the three, with mild understeer on turn-in, a neutral demeanor mid-turn as you apply the power, and power oversteer on corner exits. But thanks to a more predictable throttle and more accurate, lively steering, the oversteer is progressive and easily controlled, unlike the Corvettes." Now, on street tires the Ferrari showed it was notably slower than the Z06, but on Corsa Rcomps it was faster by quite a margin in R&T. I know you and I disagree on this point, but I do believe that Corsas are worth 2 seconds on a two minute track. I've been on Corsas, PSCs, Hoosiers, Kumho V700s and Toyos on the track, and believe that the Corsas are close to the equivalent of the PSCs and Toyos, and additionally are faster than the state of the art streets like the PS2s. Porsche is fitting more street friendly PSCs on the GT3 to get laptimes down, and Ferrari has now done it with the F430 while the Chevy runs on ****ty rubber. Food for thought.
You cannot run a 7:42 with traffic. Absolutely no way. These are clean and clear laps run on days/times when the ring is closed to public traffic (which is quite frequent.) Even then, the same results come up on other tracks (see frayed posts.) A ferrari is much more fun car, but the Vette is faster when it comes down to the cold hard laptimes. Frayed: the vette usually runs those times with run flats!!!
Agreed on both accounts. The vette is a performance tour de force, but in reality a blunt instrument. I've driven Z06s. They feel vague, uncommunicative, and 'cheap'. But fast as *****. Like I said, you gotta drive what moves yah, and objective data are only part of the equation.
I agree Corsa DOT-Rs are worth about 1 sec per minute of track time. I *don't* agree that Corsa *System* tires are (they are not DOT-R tires, even though for marketing purposes Tire Rack would like you to believe that), which are what were mounted to the 430 (and the Gallardo) in the R&T test. Gary
Something often overlooked is the size advantage of the Chevy rubber. The chevy has a 285 and a 325 mm tire. the Ferrari has a 225 and 285 mm tire. The Ferrari suffers a lack of lateral grip at the track regardless of the tire. My experience at the track with Z06's at the track is that the Corsa's still aren't enough to ofset the tire size advantage. If you could equalize the tires, I think the 430 would have an advantage in medium and high speed corners. The Z06 has the edge down the straight. The Ferrari could get it back in the brake zone if it had some more tire. As it sits the Ferrari is not as fast around the track regardless of what the magazines say. (I should qualify this by saying I have a spyder and it weighs in at exactly 3400LBS with half tank of gas). I am going to run pilot sport cups in a bit large size at Sebring in a couple weeks and will report here as to the difference they make (if any). P.S. Regarding the Corsa systems, the fronts are the problem. They would make an unbelievably rain combo on track. In the dry they have more grooves than rubber and just don't get enough grip. The rears aren't as bad.
Well, I don't have back to back experience with the Pirelli Corsas and Corsa Systems, so you may be right. Need to talk with the p reps to understand better the differences. But based on the 'system' street behavior (crappy wet, crappy cold, stiff ride, great turn in, flicking stones in the wheelwells, etc.), they seem like Toyos on the street. . which indeed are hard core Rcomps and love abuse on the track. Either way, Pirelli Corsa Systems vs. the vette runflats?
I drove my "systems to Sebring in a monsoon. They went through the water like I couldn't believe. I was one of the fastest fastest cars on the road. To put it in perspective a couple of freinds were driving Vettes with Nitto RII's. They were slowwed to around 30 MPH. I was going 55MPH no problem. They do last quite well on the track though. I got 3 full track days and about 1500 miles of driving out of mine, and it was really only the fronts that seemed heat cycled to death. There was still good tread.
I've got to admit I have no idea how good or bad the Vette tires are. Run flats always get a bad rap but I have no personal experience with them. I would fully expect them to not be as good a tire as the Corsa System. Gary
OK Thanks for the permission. I think EVO, (not a US magazine) had lots of good things to say about the Z06. As has much of the world press. I'm going to guess that you've never owned a Z06, or any Corvette, and I wonder if you've ever owned a Ferrari. I've owned both Corvettes, Ferrari, Vipers, and currently a British car with a Japanese engine (Lotus Elise). I think of myself as very American having been born and raised here, but that didn't stop me from buying any type of vehicles from any number of countries. At the moment, of the six vehicles we have, one is "American" whatever that means in today's world of globalization where Toyotas are built in the US, and my British car has a Toyota engine. Yes, Ferraris are a wonderful marque (my Testarossa being an exception), but that doesn't mean a Z06 can't outperform most of them. Frankly, my Lotus Elise outperforms my Testarossa. Different vehicles for different purposes. Of course, I've never owned a car from New Zealand. What do you have? The Holden? Anything else?
Having owned both a Ferrari (Testarossa) and a couple of C5 Vettes, I don't think Corvette owners are trying to compare a 430 and a Z06 on an apples to apples basis. They/we are aware that if we had $83,000 to spend and someone offered them/us a choice of a 430 or a Z06 we would take the 430. What the Corvette people are doing with the comparison is congratulating themselves/us on being able to own a "reasonably priced" vehicle that will do most everything a 430 will do at a savings in U.S. dollars of about $180,000 extra dollars that most of them/us will never have or be willing to spend on a car. (new Ferraris here are marked up dramatically- as are repairs-- ask me how I know). Plus, if the 430 owner is lucky enough to own one, why is he wasting time concerning himself with any comparisons to ANY car? He should be out driving. And he shouldn't feel the need to prove anything. The fact that he is even pulled into the argument is a victory for the waaaaaaayy cheaper Corvette. Score one for the Corvette crowd...... even if it's only those/we "Americans".
A Pm has been sent to you Jack about an offer to race. I'm sure we would all love to see it. It just gives us something else to argue about and we all seem to like that around here.
The Corvette has been in production in the United States since the 50s. It is the oldest sports car marque that America can call its own. Ferrari owners (I'm not one at the moment having sold mine) are justifiably proud of their vehicles heritage, hence Tifosi, who hang over balconies and cheer on Ferraris in Italy. National pride in an accomplished marque with a long and storied history is a GOOD thing. My current Lotus has a Toyota engine, but its incredible lightness, and no nonsense approach to road handling by taking every bit of weight out of the car that Colin Chapman would have directed were he still alive, lives on. True vehicle enthusiasts generally end up owning quite a few marques over time. Reading about their different horsepower, torque, skid pad, and other results is just part of the fun for most of us, and I don't mind comparing Range Rovers to Toyota Prius's so long as it's fun.
Very well stated. Unfortunately so many of them have brainwashed themselves to think that they truly bought the greatest performance car ever.
If you read my posts, and frayed as well, I think you'll find them quite objective. I am not a "Corvette" person and I would much rather have the Ferrari (as I've stated several times.) If I would prefer the Ferrari, then I obviously am not a "Corvette person." I know one guy who could afford an F430, but he bought a Z06 and a Quatroporte instead. He's a truck junky though, and his car ONLY sees the track and the roads that lead up to it. For track use, the z06 is better. It's just faster and cheaper to run. Anyone who says the F430 is a better track car is dead wrong. You can talk about steering feel all you want, but at the end of the day, you're going to be paying SEVERE maintenance bills and you're going to be worried more about rock chips on track than having fun. The Vette will turn faster laps. Period. Attribute this to wider tires, whatever. Ferrari flawlessly engineered their car, and if they thought Z06 sized 305's were better than 285's, they'd have used 305's. The Vette is just a faster car. This is a fact. It's faster around the n-ring, it's faster in the 1/4 mile, it's faster in magazine test tracks. This is not what vette people are making up, and it's not at all what you decribed above. The vette is faster and cheaper. FACT. The Ferrari is better made, has an infinately better interior, near Z06 performance, better resale, better image (this is important to someone who's going to plunk down a quarter million for a car!), much better styling (subjective technically), and would be more fun to drive. More precise, more stable, better sound, better steering and brake feel, etc. That looks like Ferrari 9, Z06 1. All of the above for Ferrari, laptimes for the Vette. Although the Vette has better gas mileage, so it's really 9-2. It's not so much that the Vette people are trying say their car does everything an F430 does. They are not. Not one vette owner has claimed the Z06 has a better interior. Not one has said the vette's styling is better. Not one has said the corvette has more status. The only thing I've heard the vette crowd compare to the F430 is mechanical performance. Not emotional, but mechanical. Laptimes.
As an owner of both I can tell you that driving a Z-06 is terrific fun. If you don't have the money for a Ferrari it is a great choice, if you do --- buy both and fully enjoy your "mood swings". People love these cars, just different people. Enjoy
