Senna vetoed Warwick because the Lotus was small at the time and couldn't deal with two top drivers. He was obviously not afraid of racing with a top teammate, his next teammate was Alain Prost
Well said Carol. I realize it is a waste of time to even respond to someone who is hell bent on being negative and refusing to see reality. I expected yesterday's retirement announcement. But this morning when I checked our local newspaper, and read the "old" news, I felt a sadness I did not feel yesterday. Maybe seeing it in print made this changing of the guard more real. Today the news is bad news. I am so glad I went to Indy this year. The elevator ride down on Sunday morning with Michael will not be forgotten.
McLaren picked Berger not Senna. There was no one else available. Mansell was with Ferrari, Piquet, if you thought Senna/Prost was bad, Piquet and Senna truely detested each other, which wouldn't have worked either. Who else could have been an equal teammate to Senna in that era? pretty much only Prost. Ferrari has been ducking signing fast drivers to appease MS for a while now. I guess they got sick of it. MS can't even say he has ever had one equal teammate other than Piquet who was past his prime.
Sorry to hurt your feelings, princess, but I am entitled to my own opinion. Just because I am not a Schumi-sycophant doesn't mean I am not entitled to express my opinion, just as you are. I don't give a **** if you find my comments unsupportive of MS, I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are of yours. Why don't you go post on SchumacherSycophant.com? I defy you to demonstrate that I am anti-Ferrari. I am as much a fan of the team as you are, a point I have made on many an occasion. Unlike you, I don't equate MS with Ferrari. What I am not is one of these MS apologists for whom the very ground he walks on is holy. Get over yourself and get over your hand-wringing over his retirement. It seems to me that the vast majority of you automatically confer hero status on whomever drives for Ferrari. Witness the embarrassing and idiotic drivel about Massa, a third-rate driver if ever there was one. By this time next year, you all will be lining up to wipe Kimi's arse. If MS spent his career at Renault/Benetton, none of you would be whining like babies as you are now I, on the other hand, will simply enjoy F1 racing for what is it and not automatically confer hero status on whoever drives for Ferrari. I want to see good, hard, clean racing by drivers unafraid of competition, even within their own team. Maybe we can get that now...
Sorry, I deleted that post. This thread is not for bickering about Senna, there are enough of those. It is about Schumacher, good, bad or indifferent. Let's stay on topic. Now as for what you say about Schumacher "ducking" teammate, firstly, who besides Hakkinen was his equal? And secondly, as long as the #1 driver delivers results, he is free to dictate who the #2 is.
Didn't even think about using the digital until he was out the lobby and in the Maserati, but I did get his autograph in an Italian Michael Schumacher book I bought the day before. Then Todt's a few minutes later. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Goods enough but there was a point about MS, either way i'm sad to see him go, F1 will be a bit more boring now.
Ferrari offered MS the opportunity to drive alongside Kimi. It is not Ferrari's fault that Schumacher won't drive alongside a competitive driver in equal equipment. Ferrari has over 1,000 employees. Had they not signed Kimi this season, they would have lost the opportunity for at least 2 years if not longer, there are no other top drivers available and MS was definitely not sticking around the sport for too many more seasons, regardless. Are you seriously suggesting that Ferrari should have placed one man's ego above the necessity of securing the future for it's 1,000+ employees?? "waaah, the world is not fair, waaah". Pathetic.
Kimi could have been signed last year. He knew he could beat Massa and has been doing so. Rubens signed as a number 2 driver and was treated as such as was Irvine. Why do such things in place if you're not ducking a fast teammate? Why didn't MS wanna drive with Kimi next year with equal status? A straight fight with the Iceman in equal cars would have been epic.
Absolutely. If there is anything to be saddened with by MS decision, it is that we will never get to see MS and Kimi competting in equal equipment. That would have been a great rivalry.
It is sad to see Schumi go. It is the end of an era. Schumi has certainly been the standard of his day. One can't help feel the emotion of Shumacher's stepping down. But I am not sad for him. My god, he's had a great career and has made more money than any driver in history. He will continue to have a wonderful, wonderful life. Unfortunately, it is a marred record. Things like Italian stewards deciding to penalize Alonzo for 'blocking' Maza on Sat, things like Shumi's qualification driving at Monaco... these things detract from his overall record. The playing field isn't always level due to such things. Ok, such things aren't new - race outcomes have been manipulated since the beginning. All the same, these details make it hard to accurately place Schumacher among the greats. Wouldn't it have been much more meaningful if Schumacher had won yesterday without Alonzo's questionable penalty? Ferrari is no doubt going to take a lot of hits for pushing Schumacher out. I don't think that there's really much question that that's what happened. Michael loves racing. One part of him would keep on racing forever, with or without a winning car, if he could. But Ferrari needs to plan for the future, to bring in new blood. Luca Montezemolo really looked the cad after the race yesterday - it must have been his decision to sign Kimmi and push Michael - but it was probably a good decision for Ferrari long run . Final thought: what do you think Michael was saying to Kimmi as the anthem was played?
Actually, the UK commentary on the race said that the stewards who make the decisions are 3: one is local (italian), one is from the UK, and the other is a South American. And as for MS vetoing Kimi @ Ferrari, if I recall correctly, I read that Kimi had no intention of joining Ferrari if it meant having Michael in the team. I can see why: with MS in the team, he'd obviously be considered a second driver, a position he's frankly too good of a pilot to assume. Now twk63: stop crapping on a tribute thread. There's plenty of wah wah MS is evil threads on this board, go spew your garbage on those.
Kimi has been quoted throughout his career as saying he doesn't care who his teammate is. Kimi has absolutely no fear of driving alongside MS in an equal car. It is MS's reluctance to do the same that is forcing him out of F1, period. FACTS: 1) Ferrari had a contract on the table for MS for 2008. 2) MS could be driving in 2008 for Ferrari if he chose to do so. 3) Ferrari did not order MS to retire. 4) The only reason MS is out of F1 is because MS refuses to drive alongside a competitive driver on equal terms. Period. You don't have to like these facts, but they are FACTS. You can sugar coat it any way you want, but the truth is the truth. Go to hell. Where does it say anywhere that this is a tribute thread? The title is "MS Retires". If you don't like the free exchange of opinions, intellectual honesty, and expansion of ideas through debate, then cancel your ISP service, you sycophant.
F1 is a team sport, with team orders, with a #1 and a #2 driver. Has been like this for at least 25 years. Mansell, Prost, Senna, etc., left teams when they could not dictate the second driver. If you want to see competition amongst teammates, F1 is not your cup of tea. There will always be team orders, and the #1 driver will 99% of the time get the advantage. Not sure what you are watching, but it's not F1, hasn't been that way successfully in my adult life. The Prost/Senna team did not work. That will not change in 2007 on any team in F1. Intentionally. Solution just for you: Watch NASCAR, there they do not have team orders, and even if meant losing the championship for one of the "team" members, their teammate would still beat him to finish line. That sounds like what you want, which isn't all that bad, it is just not F1. Schumacher is a legend in Italy, to the real tifosi. They know that what Scuderia Ferrari is today is virtually 100% because of Schumacher. He brought the team together, told them how to do things effectively, and helped design the cars that are winning. There is real concern that the team will falter without him as Raikkonen is only a driver, not a development guy. See the interview with Ferrari's Chief engineer posted in this section of FChat if you want the facts. But then,you probably know more than him, right? Just like you know more than Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Schumacher, Montezemelo, the Ferrari Board, about renewing Massa's contract for two more years. Keep in mind, the #2 driver is rather critical because for the corporate team the Constructor's Championship is more import$$t than the Driver's Championship. Without a strong #2, you may not win that as the #2 must consistently finish in the points. Apparently they feel that Massa can help win this championship. He proved that very nicely this year. And on top of being good, the #2 must be content with being #2, because of pending team orders. Besides, why didn't Team Ferrari, knowing their driver was in fact Kimi, replace Massa with one of those drivers you previously mentioned as being better? They had an out with Massa, his contract was up. So why didn't they go driver shopping? You seem to think you have "the facts", please tell me why they did not find another #1 driver to team Kimi with all the money they have to spend? Just maybe Kimi dictated this in his contract? Not sure where your get your information, but you haven't been right about much so far. Your facts aren't. For some reason you do not like Schumacher, that is your opinion, most here do not agree with you. It would lend to your credibility if you had facts to back your comments. The facts are quite opposite from your observations, and that is really irritating.
Is this a straight fight? MS in the twilight of his career with nothing left to prove, a wife and kids. Kimi is in his prime and is desperate to win. Let's suppose: Kimi wins, does that make him better? MS has more than a decade of winning that Kimi has a long way to go towards matching. Conversly, MS wins, is Kimi now sheet? Should he just quit? I think these comparisons only exist in a vacuum, never in the real world. Maybe IROC.
Have you noticed that no one has come to your defense? The problem is not that you have a differing opinion, the problem is not that your delivery is like a bull in a china store, the problem is that your version of intellectual honesty is not. In debate, you need facts. You only make negative comments, with no facts to support your position. Your points above about the only reason that Schumacher retired, can you prove that you are correct? Do you have an "in" to the Ferrari Board? Or are you guessing? So far all the interviews with Ferrari and Schumacher do not jive with your guesses. Your facts are not, they are only your opinion. That does not work in a debate. I hope that was intellectually honest enough for you. :}
Whew! It's HOT in here! Well, it's always hot down in Texas... I had very mixed feelings about watching this all play out yesterday....there seems to be more here than meets the eye. But at the end of the day, I think he decided he'd made enough money, won enough races and accomplished his role in history. I took comfort in the fact he's not leaving as Senna and many others have done..... It's all too easy for us to forget the incredible personal risk a driver faces every race, and with a wife and children, maybe this was the determining factor. I think, as many have said (Even Luca) that he could have continued to drive for a long time to come........Sad, to think political intrigue in the Ferrari boardroom could defeat him.... I wish him well, it's been a good show, and I pray his retirement lasts longer than Mike Hawthorne's did.......someone this weekend tried to talk me back into an race event, and I told her she was CRAZY! LOL!
Hmmmm.... Two years together, Two Constructors titles, Two World Driving Championships, 26 wins out of 32 races (IIRC). ...and you say that partnership didn't work? Come on, Tifosi. I expect better than that from you. You must be drinking. What have I not been right about? Be more specific instead of making vague generalizations. I have not been wrong about anything yet. I will give you all the facts you want. Whether you are willing to hear them is another issue. And as far as people coming to my support, you should see my inbox. You would be amazed at how many people agree with me but would rather not withstand personal attack by the MS-sycophant crowd. It is true that I don't care much for MS as a driver. I respect his accomplishments in the car but statistics alone are not the measure of a true champion. MS has plenty of failings as a competitor that it appears a lot of you sycophants are choosing to ignore. So go ahead and whine about his leaving the sport but don't blow smoke up the rest of our arses about how he is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel. He is a talented driver, the best of his generation for certain, but he is IN NO WAY, the greatest driver ever to lace up gloves. Maybe you would rather have a website full of sycophants waxing on over MS' achievements and speculating on the date of his canonization? As for me, I would rather enjoy intelligent and spirited debate amongst informed participants. I would rather learn from divergent opinions than stifle myself with monotonous sycophancies. ...but that's just me. Your opinion might differ.
I think from a Team Owner standpoint, the Prost/Senna combo wrecked a lot of equipment.... Maybe THAT was the problem Luca had with the Schumi/Kimi proposal....... A shame IMO, as "in the old days" a lot was passed from senior drivers to the younger ones. Nowadays, it's every man for himself......something's lost in that.
