Does Ferrari "dumb it down?"

They're Italian, not German!

But seriously: the production numbers that Ferrari has make it difficult to spend the money to have Porsche-level reliability. Frankly, they are doing a much better job than ever before, but look at the total turnover of Porsche vs Ferrari and there's your answer. The money just isn't there. And the business model says that increasing production numbers to Porsche levels would be counterproductive in terms of profits.

At least that's my take. It's not a cynical matter of "we can produce less-reliable cars" but a matter of "we do everything we can to iron out the bugs within budget."

Fortunately for Ferrari, enough people are willing to live with the idea that "we're doing our best," which I think they are. A pretty impressive best if you ask me, and I don't even have any aspiration to ever own a Ferrari. I just like the folks who hang out here.

 

Tell us, What would you change?

Timing belts? They did.
Hydraulic valves? They did.
Electronic fuel injection? They did.
Electronic ignition. They did.
Coil on plug? They did.
Eliminate head retorquing thru better fasteners? They did.



They continually do everything reasonably technologically possible consistant with cutting edge performance cars and their needs.

For someone who has been in the business since the cars had points and carbs I think they have done a great job of it.

Don't you? Or do you even have the experience to make such an assertion to start with?

If you make it as tough as a tank you will have a tank.

 

I did not ask if you have the money to own one. If I wanted to know that I would have asked that. You asked a question showing you have no knowledge of current design or construction of the car and asking why they do not do many of the things they already have. You ask now about belts, they are gone. If you did a search on the subject you would find out there are many good reasons to have belts on a Ferrari motor, but still they are gone. Burning up manifolds....ancient history. Remove motors for routine maint......ancient history.
Many of the things you ask about are history, that is exactly why I ask if you have the experience to make the assertions you do.
The new cars cost less in adjusted dollars to maintain than any other period in Ferrari history for the reasons I outlined in my first post.

 

Brian (Rifledriver) -

I think you're being just a little tough on Maseratifan. He simply posed a question, and you could have answered directly that Ferrari has made a lot of improvements over the years, and cited the examples that you did without challenging Maseratifan's credentials to even ask such a question.

Your tag/signature line suggests that you aren't always so impressed with Ferrari's efforts (well, at least not with FNA's) either. I seem to recall (although I may be incorrect) that you don't think much of Ferrari's non-manual transmissions, for example.

Mark

 

You must remember, when people compare a ferrari to another car, that other car is normally 10years younger. Of course its going to be cheaper to maintain. However the new ferrari's are very modern and are on the ball.

bigger HP cars have more stress on parts and that means have a lower amount ok km's till the engine dies(F1 cars eg..... or even better Drag cars with super amounts of HP can only drive 800m max!!). Lower amount of HP means higher amount ok km's. If you take any ferrari. De-tune it down to 110HP. Im sure the thing will last longer

 

I have no real problem with Ferrari Spa I just don't happen to care for the way FNA treats its dealers or customers.

When you say non manual transmissions, if you mean F1's I have consistantly been one of it's biggest supporters and defenders. If you mean full automatics as a matter of fact I was very recently defending the 456 transmission against incorrect suggestions that it is problematic. I do not believe there is sufficient data to come to that conclusion so I really have no idea how you can come to the conclusion that I don't like it. As memory serves I stated I do like it as far as functionality goes.


As far as Maseratifan goes it was far more than a question. It was a question based on several either inaccurate or false conclusions due to lack of information. I only challenged his source of information.

 

First of all, they could, probably. But the answer is you probably wouldnt want one. I don't know about you or your background, but it seems that many of the people here who either own a Ferrari, or desire one, have almost no real mechanical skill or knowledge. Many simply read statistics and run with it. Whats the HP and torque, and how does it compare to that other machine? But how many look at the RPM that that HP and torque is produced at? Would you know why it mattered?

Compare for example an early 80's Corvette to an early 80's 308 GTSi. Both cars weigh about the same. Both cars are listed as having 205 HP, both about 200 feet of torque. So one might automatically assume about equal performance from a dead stop. No way, Jose. The "vette" will pull away hard and leave that lil Ferrari sitting there for a while. But wait, our lil Ferrari is gaining ground, catching our lil vette. At around 100 mph or so, the Ferrari has come alongside, and from then on will be out ahead and will begin to unravvel distance on the vette, and the vette will never catch it. Wave bye bye.

Back when Collin Chapman was building F1 cars and winning trophies, it was said his cars were built so fragile they were dangerous. Every car maker in the world seems to build differently. Some car makers build a heavy structure around you, and put light alloy running gear in the car. Others build a light car, and put a big cheap cast iron lump inside to propel it. Both cars weigh the same and have simular performance. Which one would you feel safer in? Would you give up some safety for greater performance? Mercedes seems to build a really heavy structure and put a fairly light powerplant into it, to be both fast AND safe. I think Ferrari may be even safer in some cases. I dont know of another car I would want to break off a power pole with 20 feet off the ground at 168 mph.

Then there are those engineering issues. Belts or chains. Belts are light and can spin up rapidly giving quite a performance advantage, but require a tighter maintenence schedule. Chains are just the opposite. You will always trade off reliability or safety for higher performance, and you will always lose performance to offer greater saftey or reliability, there is no free lunch. As Rifledriver so eloquently put it, build it like a tank....But by changing materials, design or architecture, you can regain that loss of strength and maintain the same level of performance, or many times improve the performace. Carbon fiber is stronger than steel while simultaneously being lighter. Aluminum instead of iron, monocoque instead of ladder frames, space frames instead of monocoque, spheres instead of boxes. using mechanical components as stressed chassis members, etc.

And lastly, you have asthetics. You have the machine that was built slowly with hand fitted peices, from more raw materials, or simpler materials, from limited production parts makers. These individual parts may be a bit cruder or less finely crafted than high production parts, and may require hand finishing to achieve the required result, and you can see this handwork, which you never see on more production cars. Even at a 50-70% profit on thier products, Ferrari is still not making the money a large company is making, yet they are funneling vast sums of those profits back into thier racing program. Who else does this??

But just as I began this, I think that with good understanding of mechanics, and with the correct eye, one can see why a Ferrari "is" a Ferrari, and why none of the other makers can create something like it. About the only thing I could compare to a Ferrari would be some other custom built machine. Perhaps a real home built street rod, or a one off motorcycle built with aftermarket parts, but its even more than that. It would have to be a motorcycle or street rod where the builder made his own engine and put his name on it. Not a Ruf Porsche, or a Shelby Cobra. A real car built by one guy with his own motor. I think a Lambo falls into that category, except they have no background in racing, no "breeding" like that lil Stanguelini sports racing car I seen at our recent local event. Its almost like the Ferrari was built by lil elves at the North Pole, and signed by Santa Claus. I just cant think of anything else that feels that way. Even broken and not running, sitting in the garage its still magnificent. I suppose if Ferrari reads this we will be even more screwed on parts, lol

And again, a good understanding of mechanics and the willingness to get your hands dirty, will always save a lot of that maintenence expense of paying to have it done.

 

I was referring to full automatics. Please note that in my post I stated that I might have been incorrect, and golly-gee-whiz, I searched your postings to verify whether I was correct or not, and found 2 of your posts about the 456 automatic. Unfortunately, I had apparently posted (OOPS!) while searching your postings and when I came back to my post to edit it, you had already replied. You may have posted more than the 2 posts that I found about automatics, but for some reason I was only able to search through the last 250 of your 4,000+ posts.

But still, I'm curious about the reasons behind your tag/signature. Are you willing to share a short summary of what gets your goat about FNA? I know, I could try to track down all of your posts but it seems like that would take a very looooong time.

Mark

 

Brian's right. With a modern F-car the maintenance is very minimal. Fluids and scheduled maintenance, that's about all you have to worry about over time. Now, after the warranty is long over it's anybodies guess as to what kinds of demons lurk

 

They routinely screw the dealers out of warranty money. The warranty compensation system under compensates the dealers (they used to behind closed doors openly admit it). One result of this is to cause the dealers to run the retail repair prices way up to balance it out. The other fall out is for the dealers to do everything possible to avoid warranty work. The dealers really are being bled very badly.

I had many warranty jobs that were preapproved get denied in the claim phase after the work was done. It is very prevelent in very large jobs. One of mine was a 360 complete transmission. Nearly a $30k claim and they just say "Sorry we changed our minds". I am aware of them doing the same exact thing to the other local dealer. I acted as the retained professional against FNA in a couple of cases. One was a case of a 360 with bad catalytic converters. All 4. The owner was charged for their replacement to the tune of over $20k dollars. The damage was caused by improperly timed cams after a cam variator campaign was performed. The owner complained several times about poor performance and was blown off until all 4 cats were damaged and their debris damaged the motor substantially internally. The dealer performing the work is owned by Ferrari. They continued to blow him off until we sued. Ferrari was found by the state to be in violation of 6 laws and threatened to hold up approval of the 430 for sale in Ca for their actions.
There is a non disclosure agreement in place for the settlement that I am not a party to but I know from talks prior to the settlement it was going to take more than $300k to settle and I suspect he got comfortably more than that.

They are thugs. They do business like it and they act like it. They bully and intimidate every body to get their way.


Thats why I don't like FNA.


Oh, and their technical assistance to the dealers was incompetant.

 

Srfcity modern f-cars=minimal maintenance... not true if they are driven. For my 575, oil changes, scheduled maintenance, tires and "minor stuff" needing to be fixed...da da ~$16k per year. IMHO worth every cent.

Steve

 

I have always believed that Ferrari designs its cars such that they require a lot of maintenance in order to support its dealer network...the fact is Ferrari dealers do not make a lot money selling cars when compared to other marques who sell more cars per month than a Ferrari dealer sells per year...so dealers have to make their money on service and parts...there are just too few Ferraris sold to make a lot on sales alone. As far as Ferraris being such high performance cars that high maintenance is necessary is BS IMHO...the Honda S2000 makes 240hp out of 2 liters yet is as reliable as a Civic with the same maintenance schedule...thats about the same hp to cc ratio as the 430, yet look at the 430 maintenance schedule and cost.. but, it is the price we all pay to drive an Italian exotic and will not change...ever...

 

Im pretty sure they are not. Just think about it. The world's most cutting edge technology cant exactly last for 30k without needing something, thats just obvious, or else it wouldnt be cutting edge. All that horsepower mixed with all that technology...and there just Ferrari. This is so hard to explain why I think they are not.

 

Uh,cutting edge technology- Ferrari? I dont think so. BMW M5 M6 - Technology/Performance, virtually maintenance free with true cutting edge technology, Ferrari couldnt even compare. I really like Ferrari, but I can accept their shortcommings.

 

If you drive say 2K per year, then maintenance is negligable. It sounds like your car was driven much more then that. $16K seems like a lot for any kind of routine maintenance though.

 

I think Rifledriver has enough respect here on Fchat to be trusted with what he says, most of the time BMW and Porsche are building cars the way thier government is telling them to. They build cars that by the time they wear out, will be thrown away, or parted out. Some of the truly modern cars are not even built to be repaired. A BMW will depreciate down until rebuilding whats left of the engine would so exceed the cars value to border on insanity. Ferrari is about the last company in the world to build a real car, and some of the problems are just part of accepting that. Most of the problems that arise, it sounds like Ferrari does a good job of correcting from all I have heard.

 

hmmm..Interesting topic here.

And I thought you were all going to talk about why Ferraris don't have cup holders.

btw..anyone know how to install one that will hold my big gulp?

 

Your question is pretty simplistic, which is why rifledriver probably came back at you with a more critical response. 1) Ferrari has been improving, which your proposition ignores, 2) high maintenance costs are not the same as high failure rates (maintenance costs can be high due to high service costs per event), 3) a car manufacturer that produces 5K cars per year (i.e. Ferrari) does not have the same design fault/iteration improvement opportunities, due to statistical factors, compared to a manufacturer that produces 70-80K cars per year (i.e. Porsche) over equivalent time windows, and 4) a manufacturer that stresses their components to a higher level than other manufacturer's will see a higher failure rate, given equivalent materials and design capabilities (e.g. higher BHP/liter ratings or higher RPM's or both - Ferrari introduced normally aspirated 3.6 liter 400-425 BHP engines with 8500 RPM redlines in 1999 in the 360 model, Porsche is just introducing them in 2006 in the 3.6 liter 997 GT3).

P.S. Telling rifledriver to "take a hike" is not cool. He has been more helpful and generous with his time and good advice to users on this board than can be measured.

 

So how do you explain the low maintenance and repairs needed with the 120 hp per liter Honda S2000 with 11.1 to 1 compression ratio and a 8900k rpm redline as compared with ~the same hp to cc ratio of the F430 for example?

 

Note that interior parts have improved...the black matted plastic parts that become sticky with time have been replaced with carbon ...and yes they are more expensive. MB also uses the the black matted plastic parts and they are not cheap to replace...warranty apart.
Also a reminder that the latest Maserati mechanicals were designed by Ferrari and therefore you should have some experience with the maintenace.
I would like to thank Rifledriver for his outstanding and very knowledgeable contribution.

 

srfCity@18.. more than 30k miles/year and two cam-belt changes in 12 months. $16k includes bumber respray and clear bra, but doesn't include ~10k fo warranty work.

Steve