Smogging 308 carbourated

Jeff, carbs car sounds and performs better but smoging it could be a major concern. However the QV also performs very well, I know because I got one, and also very RELIABLE and I think the QV requires less maintainance. So this is something you have to think about.

 

Jeff:

I own a 76' 308 (CARB). From what I understand, these cars in tip-top condition will not pass California emissions. Before you consider purchasing a carb 308, spend the extra money to get the PPI (Pre-Purchase-Inspection) and make sure it passes smog. If not, have the dealer or private seller pay the expense to get it to pass... this could cost $$$.

 

In California, by law the seller is responsible for the smog unless certain arrangement has been done between the seller and the buyer.

 

My car in its top state of tune can't even pass IL emissions. I'd have to retard the timing a ton, lean it out a ton and then maybe have a chance. Luckily I'm exempt after getting an antique plate. With CA being even stricter, you also may have to either detune the crap out of it or get some form of exemption. If I was considering a carb car in CA I'd definitely talk to the owner about emissions tests and see what he does. Buying an out of state carb car to bring to CA could be problematic so I would definitely have a smog check as part of a ppi.

Ken

 

I have been thinking about this for several years, and this thread just brings it up again. These cars passed emissions when new, they even have the little tag on the door that says so. So what the hell is going on? Did some states up thier specifications, thereby pushing older cars into obselescence, or does nobody really know how to tune the damned things? Is it a change in the fuel? Is thier test equipment calibrated properly?

Think about that last one for a second. Here in Minnesota, we put an end to testing, the ultraliberal state University actually proved that testing made absolutely NO difference. But while it was in effect, myself, and many others had a hard time getting cars to pass at the state test stations, that passed just fine at the shop or dealership prior to driving over to test.

For many years I thought I wanted to move to Colorado. Maybe all those John Denver songs? A good family friends daughter and husband moved to Colorado Springs some years ago, and after getting settled, her dad brought her 87 Honda Prelude out to her. It had passed emissions here, ran great. They take the car in there, and, as many of you probably understand, the car "puffed" a tiny bit of water vapor at the instant it started. Well, the tester dude called it oil smoke, said it needed an engine overhaul, never tested the car, and wrote on the papers that it failed and needed an overhaul due to excessive oil smoke! The neat thing was that even the Honda dealer threw thier hands in the air. The dealer said that because the "state" said the engine needed to be overhauled, thier hands were tied. They brought the car back here so her dad could sell it. To much big brother if you ask me.

 

I went through this drill about 10 years ago with a '75 308/GT4. I don't remember the exact details, but basically it flunked with HC at 300 PPM. That number is what the shop manual says and what the tag in the engine compartment says. Their documentation said 250 PPM. I went the formal challenge route and submitted copies of the manual. photos of the tag, etc. to CARB.

I worked with a very understanding engineer at CARB, and he submitted the exemption (which would have covered all '75 GT4s) for final approval and it came back from the Enviro Nazi Oberfuhrer of Air DENIED! The reason: of the 56 1975 308/GT4s in California 40 had passed smog with an HC of <250 PPM (sure.. a 20-year old carburettered car coming in under the spec... right!) the other 26 were either condemned as "Gross Polluters" (had one exemption, couldn't get any more) or were off the road.

My solution - move to Nevada.

My recommendation is do exactly what the other posters recommend - be sure the car passes smog before you buy it. (real smog, not the "parked next to a Honda and put the probe in the wrong car" kind). There are many ways a "connected" operator can get a bogus certificate, probably not available to you, so make them smog it before your eyes.

Enjoy the ride!

 

So when did California decide they could supercede Federal laws? Whats next, upping federal crash standards retroactive to 30 year old cars? Cats and fuel injection for a '47 Ferrari? Keep telling me about California, I dont even want to step across the border to visit that GD state.

"Enviro Nazi Oberfuhrer of Air". Thanks Mike, thats funny. I needed a good chuckle today.

I now have put almost 700 miles on my "gross polluter" and its making me happier all the time. Still not really like driving a regular car, still feels like I am driving a flying saucer. But its behaving and being reliable and I'm learning how to drive it. That in itself is fun. Put over 100 miles on yesterday, had a blast. Gonna be like 80 degrees here next monday, and thats my 48 birthday. I'm thinking of taking a ride somewhere. I agree, get out of Kalifornication and live somewhere "happy".

 

The first time.

What about the rest of the time he owns it?

 

Smog standards for many carbed 308's are lower now in Ca than when they were new.

Don't like it?

Sue the state. Let me know how it works out.

Buy a 4v. Better car in many ways and way less to worry about.

 

My 1974 308 GT4 used to pass smog via my shop doing a quick "detune" and then I'd go back and have them "re-tune" it. It was just a carb adjustment. Anyway, one day I was flagged down by a Highway Patrol officer who pointed my car over to this official-looking group of trucks and trailers and people in white lab coats on the side of a residential road in West L.A. Turns out it was a spot smog check!!! I think they were doing this for some sort of study. I assumed it was voluntary and came close to just bailing, but I chickened out and let them do the test (it was on a dyno-type machine with wheel rollers). The problem: I had JUST had my engine "re-tuned" after a smog check!! Literally a week later. The surprise? It passed!! And they even did it twice!! I got the feeling that the end-point of this research project was to find cars to fail. I'm well-versed in the dynamics of research, and know that you can bascically "prove" anything you want to, based on the data you put into the equation. They seemed to be pretty happy at first that they bagged a Ferrari, but in the end they didn't seem as thrilled! This whole thing was around 1998.

Anyway, all I know is that my gas fume-spewing GT4 passed when it was not only de-tuned, but also when tuned up, I can't explain it.

And while I have heard of the problems getting passed as have been related in these posts, there are also a LOT of 308s running around Los Angeles (and California), so they must get smogged somehow. The key advice is to work with a mechanic who has the equipment to know how to tune the car to pass, and get the car "ready" before you go in.

What you DON'T want to do is just pop by a smog place to see how the car does &#8211; in CA, if a car pulls a really bad score, it gets put on a kind of smog "blacklist" that requires the car to then only be tested by special DMV-owned facilities (it gets termed a "gross polluter).

Best bet is to buy a car already licensed in CA with an owner that has been through this with his mechanic and can give you the car ready to roll.

(and BTW, my 1976 GTB is licensed out of state, and is now oh-so-close to being exempt!!!)

 

I was under the impression that 1975 and later cars must be smogged. It's not a rolling date. A 1976 308 will always be subject to biennial (?) smog checks in CA.

I guess someone in Sacramento figured out that Ferrari 308 exhaust was causing most of our smog issue out here...

Jeff, when I was car shopping I asked Eugenio (Ferrari tech in LA) about this last year, and he said carb'ed cars are a P.I.T.A. to get passed. I was considering a carb'ed 308 at one point and decided to save myself the grief.

Based on that, and now based on Rifledriver's similar advice, I think you'd do best to go for a QV or ideally a 328 unless you have a legal way to register it out of state (and if you're planning to garage the car in CA I'm not sure that's possible).

 

I was told it still is a rolling 30 years, with aprox a year to catch up. I could be wrong, but I hope not. I know for a fact that it WAS/HAS BEEN rolling by a 30-year mark, because, as I just posted, in 1998, my 1974 car had to be smogged.

Anyway, I'm registered out of state anyway and worst case, I can keep it that way. I've heard absurd (but true) stories of people getting pulled over with out of state tags and having their cars impounded and I've also heard stories (also true) of people who have had out-of-state licensed cars for 20/30 years without a problem.

 

And this doesnt sound like a NAZI government to anyone? But really, "why" did they stop these cars, and what was the outcome? They were impounded and then.....what?

 

CA smog rules - 1975 and earlier only need to have the equipment the car came with installed and apparently working - no one tests it, so basically it has to pass a physical inspection. I knew guys that installed it, but disconnected its fittings. Other guys installed it and uninstalled it after inspection. This basically means the smog pump, PCV's and associated plumbing. The law was supposed to roll, but the state froze it at 1975 several years ago. I believe it was a 25-year cycle, not 30. 1976's and up need to pass the inspection. Yes, it is more liberal. There is pending legislation to upgrade the older car standards, but the hotrodder block is try to kill it. Most carb cars fail one of the tests, usually the slow acceleration one due to high CO&#178;.

I have a friend with a '76 308 GTB fiberglass car and we went thru the drill with his car. When he bought the car, the dealer could not get it to pass (we figured they knew it all along and hoped to sell the car out of state). My friend accepted the car and the responsibility of getting it smogged. Do not expect the dealer to get it done if it is a problem; they will just sell the car out of CA.

No matter what was done to the carbs, it would not pass. The engine is stock except no thermal reactors which u cannot find anyway. The state has an appeal process for successive test failures where u go to a referee to get an exemption. The exemption lasts only for the current cycle and u will have to do it again in 2 years if u fail. Our experience was that the referees are not terribly sympathetic to Ferrari owners, likely figuring that we had the money to make them right so go ahead and do it. In this case, they recommended installing the thermal reactors; of course, they did not provide a source for these parts.

The Solution: The carbs were rejetted with smaller jets. The entire fuel system was cleaned of varnish - tank, lines, fuel pump, carb rebuild. The stock muffler was replaced with a custom catalytic converter set up made just for the test. Yes, it was loud, but smog rules cover emissions, not noise. After the successful test, the stock (actually an Ansa) muffler was reinstalled and the carbs up-jetted. $4K for the initial set up then whatever it costs to refit the stuff every 2 years.

 

I remember reading something along the lines that the lobbyists for the Hot Rod /SEMA crew successfuly got a draconian measure that would essentially ban older cars killed.

I believe there was talk about an eventual compromise that would go along the lines of getting the old beaters off the road while allowing so-called "collector" cars to be OK'ed with some sort of provisional registration. It was also stated that the Governor was sympathetic to the car collectors.

After all, the goal of the smog tests for these old cars is for people to junk the cars, not to get them to run cleanly. There is even a $200 incentive for junking an old car (or was). The state wants them gone &#8211; and let's face it most of these old cars spew more crap into the air parked and not running than a 2007 Hummer does driving down the freeway.

I guess the issue will become when is an old car a "classic" car?

Alternate solution: get a '74 GT4 and put a GTO body kit on it!!

And as far as that "physical inspection" &#8211; I have two other pre-1975 cars that I brought from other states that had to get new registration and didn't have to get them inspected. A Lotus Europa I brought in from Canada required an inspection by both the DMV and the Highway Patrol, but both just verified the VIN, and never looked at anything else (nor did it seem like anything else was supposed to be done).

I wonder what political entity is fighting for the "classic car" exemption? I'd like to make a donation!! I know on the motorcycle front that the AMA and ABATE fight for motorcycle rights in Sacramento. Who is our voice with the car stuff?

 

On that front (the lobby), I know the car clubs are really active, especially the classic Chevy and Corvette clubs. I think that there are some wealthy and politically connected collectors who are spearheading this and it has spread to enthusiats. Let me check with Leno and I'll get back to ya...

 

I have a '79 308 which I get smogged every two years, most recently this year. My mechanic is required to expend some effort in de-tuning the carbs so that it will pass. The Test Station is nearby his shop. He does all of the work first then limps it over for the test. Afterwards, my mechainc re-tunes the car and I am done. My most recent smog test costs me approx. $350.00 in labor, including the smog certificate.

 

We need a Ferrari Owners Lobby to repeal the front plate law and smog tests on old exotics.

Not sure how much sympathy we would get, but I think I've finally found a cause I believe in.

 

Liberal idiot legislator's response to that request...

"Hey, u guys own Ferraris, what's ur beef? Just make them work; it's not like u don't have the money."

You'd be better off being a minority (legal) migrant worker who needs to drive your 40-year old truck to work to support your family of 8. Then u could scream racism or financial hardship and they'd listen.

 

Let me just tell you what I did before taking my car to get it smog.
1)adjust your carb to make it run very LEAN if you have to change jet then do so.
2)make sure you don't have any vaccum leaks
3)check your spark plugs and all the plug wires as to make sure you don't have any misfire, and if you can convert your old points to elctronic,even better
4)Retard your timing as far as you think its ok and safe, use T-light and play it by ear
5)Just before you're on your way to the smog shop, ran it hard, get it real HOT, push that pedal to the metal for about a 1/4mile as this will clear some of the carbon deposit inside the combustion chamber, the CAT, and mufflers.

Believe me after I or you did this? You'll have about 90% chance it will pass assuming you have all the required component in the car and nothing els is wrong. Anyway it works for me, been doing it for ten plus years. Thank you.

 

A smog passing, California car properly jetted for the elevation (5-8K above sea level) has a problem passing here (oxygen is a good thing for combustion and we a a bit short on supply here). Alcohol fuel boils in the float bowls at a very low temp at this elevation. There has not been one carbed car in proper tune that I haven't been able to get to pass here. Key word being proper tune. Getting them there can be a bit of a budget busting affair, but once there they hold it quite well. My carbed 308 blew less than 1% CO at less than 100 PPM H/C at the last test at 5580 ft elevation.
Surely they require a bit more effort than a FI car but I have had FAR less problems with the carbed 308's than the FI 2 valve cars at emissions. As stated, the QV's are a walk through at emissions if all is as it should be regarding state of tune.

Dave

 

Thanks Dave, and Mike...

I was shaking my head wondering if I had the only tuned 308GTBs in the world!

That's the secret really...heat them up! Do NOT turn it off and wait in line!

Set it up, using a better 4 gas analyzer than they have......then scream in, sliding sideways and get a sticker! LOL!

My cars all passed with ANSA, without air pumps, before getting to EXEMPT status here......now the whole Goodyear shop just gazes at it, as a high school kid checks the horn and lights......no permission to leave the parking lot, in case a Soccer Mom in a Suburban might smash him!

 

There are advantages to living in Iowa. There are the obvious disadvantages as well; the nearest Ferrari dealer is 4 hours away, but on to the advantages.

Iowa has no scheduled motor vehicle inspection, at all. No emissions, no safety check, nothing. I just send in my $26.00 every year and they send me a registration. Having lived most of my life in New Jersey before moving to Iowa 15 years ago, I went through the pain of getting my older cars to pass emissions inspection every year. It was just an idle sniff test but for a 64 Dodge with dual quads from a 1957 Fury on it, it can be a little dicey; and this was my daily driver.

I hope the Peoples Republic of California eventually realizes that the imposition that this testing places on the public is not reflected in any real gain to the environment.

Iowa relies on rolling inspections. If a Police Officer sees a car that is smoking or has a tail light out, he pulls it over and gives the driver an Equipment Card that requires documented repair of the vehicle. Even the EPA admits that the vehicles that are visibly smoking contribute the lions share of the automotive pollution.