Doing Willow Springs track school in the 308 QV Nov 4-5. (my, and my Euro 308 QV's first track event ) What do you experienced track/tech guys think about Accusump systems, I have been warned pretty strongly about the 308 track oil pressure issue, don't want to fry my bearings. I was thinking that @ my "spirited" but novice driving level, with sport tires, I am not going to pull long sustained g's ( just short term starves in the tight rights). An accusump would provide coverage for short term, add oil volume to help with heat issues, and provide start-up instant oil pressure, pretty cheap and easy install for the benefits, and I could always add the Nick's Forza sump baffle mods as well later ? Any downside ? ( I don't want to be the D*ckhead Newbie that goes out and dumps oil all over the track ). I have read every thread on fchat re this, looking for fresh info or opinion or new experience with recent installs. ( Dr. TommyCosgrove ? Branko? Enjoythemusic? ) Thanks, -Lou
One of the guys around here just put in Nicks new baffled oil pan. It looks really good and I bet is an easier install than an Accusump. Also a qt to a qt and a half overfill really helps.
Thanks, I have read that overfill is good, but that you need to install a breather catch tank. I have been running overfull (1/2 to 3/4 qt) on hard canyon runs, and I get some oil coming out of the breather (or?) and running down the clutch/dropgear side of the motor (back to that oil on the track issue) -L
AS is not a good value. They dunp oil in a fraction of a second. Yet on a long sweeper you could starve oil for a lot longer than that. These cars are designed well and do not need to be rebaffled for all but the most serious racers. An extra 1/2 quart is not going to hurt you but reemmber that running lots of oil causes foaming of the oil as the crank stirrs the oil to a froth. Under some conditons you get worse oiling with more oil. Bill Pound had the earliest workable solution in its day which was a 1" spacer on the oil pan and change in baffling and pick-up length to run an extra qt of oil. This was a well know fix in its day for the serious tracker/racer. I do not know if Nick's baffle is tested or just the result of a good idea that he thinks will work. Bill Pounds method was well tested.
Fatbillybob, Agree about the deeper oil pan and as i recall some guys just get a 328 pan and mod accordingly as the 328 pan is deeper. Problem with cars like mine, the car is low to the ground so ground clearance issues arise. Nick says he tested his mod via beta guys. So far Nick has never lead me astray. LOU --- since you are using regular street rubber on a stock suspension i think adding some extra oil should be fine. Odds are you will be lucky to pull 0.88G in a turn. Now if/when you mod the car, use Hoosiers, etc i would then seriously consider avoiding oil starvation. If you really want to go wild and throw lots of money at it, convert the car to dry sump.
I don't know Willow Springs at all, but used to get oil surge all the time in my old GT4 track car, even on street rubber, at Moroso and Sebring. The Accusump was helpful, but did not eliminate the problem. My uninformed opinion is that short of converting to a dry sump, a better baffled oil pan is essential to remedy this problem.
Ira, many thanks for the input. Am not familiar with the GT4 and my 308 was made in July 85 and seems i have never experienced oil starvation as best i can tell. Agree with you that short of dry sump, modding the pan baffle seems like a good way to go.
As posted before, a simple test is to go to an empty parking lot and drive as hard as you can in a circle while checking your oil pressure guage. I have done this with and without the Accusump connected - there is a difference of about 20lbs pressure. (This will also give you a good idea on how your tires will stick during hard turning - i.e. skid pad.) Also, be careful not to put too much oil into the sump. On a hard left hander, you can actually push oil up and out the oil dip stick tube.
Thanks for all the input. With all of the new info I have, I have made a decision to avoid the accusump, run the oil a little high as I have been, and go enjoy the track learning experience. I'll do the Nick's Forza baffle upgrade in the near future, as driving abilty, tires and suspension mods increase starvation potential. Here is why: 1) the 3 qt dump of additional oil from the accusump on a long sweeper has too much potential for crank windage / foaming (scary) and makes the initial 6 or 8 second benefit moot. 2) deep sump (spacer) is not an option as reduced ground clearance conflicts with future adjustable suspension upgrade plans. 3) Nick's baffle upgrade has been shown to work quite well, as others experience has shown, it's cost and install difficulty is close to accusump, and does not add clutter or additional weight and heat to the engine compartment. 4) I'm not Niki Lauda, and the car only has street performance tires, so I think my initial fears were overblown. This forum and you guys are an incredibley helpful resource, thanks. See you at the track. -L
I agree. Nicks performance baffle, assuming it workd as advertized, is the way to go. after a little more testimony and experience is reported I will install one too, as I have experienced oil starvation even in spirited canyon runs. I also agree that a AS will not work. If you consider that WSIR turn 2 is about 8-10 seconds of high G right hand turn, and consider the flowrate of the 308 oilpump when the motor is running about 6000 rpm, you know that 2 quart total volume, probably only 1 quart actaul volume after subtracting the Nitrogen driver volume, is not going to be enough. I would sure like to hear from Ferrari chatters that have installed Nick's baffles in their 308s. Martin
As i mentioned, will be installing one on Sunday, will post pics/etc on Monday. i have a full day of track on Thursday at NHIS (4 hours of on-tarmac fun) but the track is mainly lefthanders. Maybe the track will have their skid pad open
I guess you guys realize that a baffle is just a plate in the sump. All it really does is control splash. In a sustained hi G turn such as turn 8/9 or 2 at WSIR the real problem may be the oil pick-up tube location hence the reason more oil helps. It hi G transient is where a baffle plate helps most. Carb 308's have the additional problem of float bowl problems on sustained G truns. This is why the Bill Pound method worked so well. He add more oil volume and changed the pick-up length. I am pretty sure with a little math research you could calculate the oil position under various G loads in a contained defined space and see exactly when the pick-up is exposed and then design around that. Guys that design fuel cells do this all the time and design baffled boxes with the pick-up inside having limited openings inside the fuel tanks to prevent starvation, weight transfer issues etc..
Not to disagree with your comment here, in fact I agree completly. If you look at the design of Nick's baffle system closely you will see a whole lot of thought and testing took place to maximize keeping the oil available @ the pick up during lateral g loads. One way valve doors, strategic horizontal interrupter plates, plate bends and hole locations etc. ( much like the fuel cell design r&d you mention.)
Here is one Nick sent me. Will have more on Monday after we install one on my car. Image Unavailable, Please Login
looks nice. Be sure to post an oem vs nicks version for the rest on FC. Others will be interested in this 308 mod.
Will post pics of stock before we mount the Nick baffle and after with Nick Baffle on Monday. (Said in good humor like a TV announcer) Monday, Monday, MONDAY, Monster Truck Madness!!! BE THERE!!!
Further (slight) testimony to Nicks baffles; to my knowledge one of the guys down here who regularly competes his 308 in tarmac rallies had alot to do with the development of this baffle. He had lots of trouble with surge and overflow and this baffle is what he finally came up with. From what I've heard he's now very happy with it.
How much is Nick's Baffle? I am assuming is is NOT like adding a windage tray, it is installed by just dropping the oil pan. Am I correct?
I don't know what Nick's charging over there for them, but to install it you just drop the oil pan and it bolts on using the other bolts already used for the stock baffle and I think that you need two small pop rivets as well, I can't remember where. I've only seen one of the development ones down here and thats what the guy who had them told me you had to do.
Exactly! We just installed the baffle yesterday and you just drop the oil pan, unbolt one of the two existing stock baffles, drop in Nick's baffle, put back the stock baffle. Then you drill two small holes on your tray, one each for what i call 'the wings,' and pop rivet. It was VERY easy to install. See pic of my car's modded tray below and MANY thanks to Fchatter Verell (as seen in pic) and all New England Fchatters who helps with yesterdays projects. Verell is VERY knowledgeable and he and i and the other guys really looked at the design to figure out what was being accomplished. We all agreed it will help greatly. i plan to track the car on Thursday but the track is mainly left handers, not the oil pan suffering right handers that cause oil starvation. In the end am VERY glad i made the mod. The engine it saves may be my own. First pic is STOCK tray, second pic is Verell, third pic is modded tray. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
They are $450 on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FERRARI-308-OILING-BAFFLE-SYSTEM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ107063QQihZ018QQitemZ280037750983QQrdZ1
