Classiche program problems and veiws.

In 1999 I was sitting in the factory listening to a course teaching us how to properly deal with a new space age body material being used on the new 360. That material was aluminum. I explained for myself and a few other of the more senior people in the room that there was nothing new about aluminum in fabricating bodies and that they had a good example sitting in the outer waiting room, a TR. I was told there was no Testarossa out there, it was an old race car. I further explained it was a TR 250. None of the factory people present had ever heard of such a thing. When we were leaving for lunch I noticed several factory people had gotten hold of a pocket magnet and were checking the car to see if I was correct. I could not hide my laughter.


These are the same people that will now tell you that they, and really only they have the knowledge, information, resources and know how to properly repair or restore your vintage Ferrari.

What a joke.

Its about opening another avenue for income, pure and simple.

The difference is that it is they that are new to the party.

 

That's funny.

Best

 

Funny and scary all at the same time ........wonder how long it is until they have to buy back all the historic spares from F-UK.........which will mean even higher prices

 

God thats worrying.

 

exactly - ADS's are one thing, but unless Classiche has started hiring guys in their 70s, 80s and 90s who worked in the factory back in the day, I can't believe the factory would have a clue about what is correct beyond a component's stamping. Only the Carte's, Obry's, Ottis's, Smith's, Sicard's (a former factory employee), etc. who have dedicated decades to studying the means, methods and materials used to build the old cars are, in my view, qualified to make such pronouncements. (Add to that list the multiple-car owners from the time period like Merritt and Niles) The number of truly original, unmolested cars that can be studied for "original" factory work (usually, it seems, courtesy of T. Shaughnessy) dwindles by the day. Now, from what I have heard, at least one of the names above will be/is involved in Classiche for north america.


Rifledriver's story above remind me of one I heard a few years ago (more related to judging madness than Classiche). At a national level concours, there was a heated "discussion" amongst the judges and an owner re: the "correctness" of the shade of yellow paint that had been used during the restoration to dab onto the various safety wires and suspension nuts/bolts. A former factory employee was within earshot and proceeded to go nuts; words to the effect "do you really think there was a 'correct' color for this kind of thing? We used whatever yellow paint happened to be lying around!!!"

 

Good point, a lot of them have lost the skilled artisans.

I never liked Lamborghini.
Then one September in 1986 I went to the 60th Annual Maserati factory meet in Modena and we took 2 weeks to visit all the factories, the small restoration shops, and even the dealers in the region (the precursor to the car guy tour).

The only major factory to still have an operational restoration facility was Lamborghini. I asked (interrupted) one restorer a simple question in broken Italian and he politely answered. As I attempted to walk away he grabbed me by the arm and spent 30 minutes showing me all the work, how he was bringing this Miura back to life with body and engine work.
Very impressive.

Many of these skills are gone.

 

As a famous comedian would say "and that's the truth" ....pfffft....


PS: Asking the factory what happened 50 years ago would be like asking Marcel to find you a perfect 250GTE for $20,000 including his commission

 

but it's indeed a difference between the load-bearing space frame technology which was actually a new thing in the 90s and a steel tube frame 'dressed' with aluminium panels.
I think their - Ferrari Classiche - own understanding of their task is to repair and restore Ferraris technically correct.
I would never hesitate to entrust them. Especially because the cost they charge per hour is fairly reasonable compared with common labour costs from other workshops.
Some Mercedes workshops in rural areas charge more. Not to mention those in the big cities.
Tracking down histories may be left to others. But also those make mistakes.
Best example is the VIN # range for the 308 cars one can always read anywhere and which says, that my car doesn't exist at all.
After a lot of confusion, at last Ferrari sent me a friendly letter and clarified.

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

According to them, in that room, sheet aluminum for body panels was new.

They have no institutional memory, nor until recently, did they care.

 

Speaking of Wayne Obry and judging at a Concours.......

My friend had his 328 at the National show two years ago and was in the Concours. The judges were trying to tell him that his car was not the right shade of red and were trying to dock points for it. Wayne, who is also buddies with my friend, was there and was trying to explain that there were 28 shades of Rosso Corsa or whatnot and how the hell could they know if the shade wasn't correct?? And the car's paint WAS original!! All while they were too busy staring at his paintjob, they were unable to apparently spot the wheels which had been freshly and COMPLETELY REPAINTED a few weeks earlier by Greg Kalmes in St. Donatus Iowa who does fantastic work. My friend ends up scoring top points in his class and takes home a Platinum award. They did decuct points for his paint shade though, which was a joke.

But the bufoonery that goes on in some Concours shows is laughable......

 

Maybe it was the fiberglass TR with a Chevy V8 that I saw years ago in Los Angeles

 

Bill,
I think you are missing the point of the judging criteria. If the wheels were repainted/refinished to the degree that they are identical to what they would have been when they left the factory, then they will receive no deduction. If the car was repainted a shade of red that was not available that year, it is given a deduct.

George

 

Speaking of "28 shades of Rosso Corsa, take a look at an original 288 GTO. You're likely to see three different "tints" on the car. The front fenders, the doors, rear fenders, etc. were painted in batches and then put on the cars. You'll usually see the difference in a profile view. It turns out Ferrari had at least five different tints of Rosso Coras at the time of the GTO and no seemed to really pay attention to which tint they were using. This information came to from Ferrari factory personnel when I asked the question about the three different shades of Rosso Corsa on my GTO. I won't even go into the "orange peel" look on GTOs.

Oh, I never even noticed the three different shades on my car until a very good painter pointed it out. I was much more interested in how the car ran. And run it does.

Steve

 

I agree. In fact I go further and say I think the whole program is a load of crap. While I agree that a so called "original" car gets more $$$$, the whole concept of originality with vintage cars is way too murky to make any logical sense at all, and the last people I'd want to make a decision is Ferrari. Especially for race cars which crash.

How much is a replaced fender worth towards originality? What about a 2nd gear synchro? Paint? Well, Ferrari is now itemizing this I guess and if you make the cut you get a certificate, if not they'll tell you how much money they'll charge you to get it up to snuff. Great.

If I had a perfect vintage Ferrari, I wouldn't certify it with them out of spite, especially if I wasn't selling the car. I don't need no stinkin' badge to know what my car is. If I were selling it, I'd know any buyer would bring along his own expert no matter what paperwork I had. After all, Jim G has a frame that the so called "expert" didn't recognize he had. Would Ferrai have recognized it on their own? Who knows...

Ken

 

FYI, Ferrari Classiche has several certification centers in the USA to perform inspections and any needed work at $75.00 per hour to certify a car as original...plus, they will obtain from the original vender(s) or make any needed parts not already available... it sounds like a great progam for those of us with 25+ year old Ferraris...and $75.00 an hour is a bargain compared to what the dealers normally charge...

 

The answer to that one is simple; no way in hell!!!

 

It is going to be interesting to see what happens when a factory restored car comes up against an overrestored car at Pebble Beach. Will the factory restored car be deemed the correct representation or will the cottage industry "overrestoration" prevail. Does anyone really believe that the Ferrari factory turned out cars as they appear at Pebble Beach? It would seem that a group of american owners decided to "correct" the lack of effort and detail that these cars were given at the factory. The american overrestorations are certainly attractive but they do not correctly represent the cars as they left the factory. It would appear that the factory has decided to set things straight. Bringing a car back to from an overrestoration will be the automotive equivalent of foreskin reconstruction. While one may be considered more attractive, it's not original. If only Ferrari can build a Ferrari, it seems only fitting that they can actually restore it "correctly". In the muscle car circles the term for these overrestored cars would be "restomods" and that is indeed what they are. They are neither correct in appearance or materials. It would be quite an undertaking to weld, undercoat, and paint to the low standards of the day. It would be even more difficult to convince anyone to pay $200 to $300 an hour to have this work performed, hence the need for the restomod. The factory rates seem quite attractive and I believe that this is the reason the "experts" are up in arms. Ferrari have the sole right to authenticate and verify cars, not the so called, self appointed experts. Since they are not authorized factory personnel, they should be treated like aftermarket parts. Regardless of how Ferrari treated it heritage in the past, it is still theirs to do with as they please. Anyone that stepped in to take their place is just a squatter. If you are not a factory authorized historian, expert, or restorer does that make you a replica like all the nonfactory GTO's? Maybe Ferrari should have an authentication/verification process for restorers, historians, and experts. Many of these experts make a parasitic living off of the Ferrari name. When statements are made like " those who know will not tell" and " you will never win unless the work was performed by a select few" you know these people are in it for the money. When Ferrari researchers openly brag about what a steal someone got you are implying that someone else got taken. I hope that the Ferrari factory recognizes 0846 since Jim is one of the few class acts to reconstruct a car based on principle and not for the money. Imagine what will happen to the credibility of the Ferrari "experts" if that happens. I think it would be great for Ferrari to profit from their own creations.

 

AGREED:

I find it very interesting. that the "ralley cry" at a Ferrari Concour prize giving event is "Ferraris should be driven" followed by a resounding cheer. Than everyone leaves and pushes there car on a trailer. The other group (mostly non owners) complain that we race them!!! SAD..

 

When you race/drive yours, as you have for many years, everyone smiles.

Best

 

I am completely on board with your statements, esp those concerning the overrestoration phenomena that has been with us for the past 20 years. As the owner of a highly original car that received comments primarily in the vein of "what is that piece of s*** doing on the field" at the 91 and 97 FCA Nationals, I am acutely aware that the vast majority of the vintage competition Ferraris are victims of over-restoration.

The portions of your statement that I take issue with I have pasted above. Are you saying that simply because Ferrari blesses a car as "original" or "authentic" therefore means that the car is as it left the factory in materials, fit and finish? While I hope that the Ferrari SpA restorations will not be guilty of over-restoration, I think it is premature to say that Ferrari's blessing equates true originality. Of course you can SAY it, but that is a legal fiction and not necessarily reality.

As I have said in another thread, unless Ferrari is hiring the original artisans from 30, 40 and 50 years ago, I don't think Ferrari knows exactly how it did certain things, or how Scaglietti or Vignale fabricated certain panels. Is Ferrari really going to replicate those means and methods? Those competencies are long gone from the factory. This is where the historians come in - those people who owned, worked on, and/or researched these cars well before they became the prized collector's items of the late 80s - and can advise the Facotry accordingly. To my knowledge, the Factory is doing exactly that, but I personally have not seen any finished products of that effort.

The great thing about being a historian is that we learn someting about the "way it was" every day. I think the Factory would be shocked to learn that Scaglietti would occassionally use a vine to form the perimeter of an aluminum racing bucket seat instead of steel tubing. Here's the vine found
in 0556(0446)MD's driver's seat a few weeks ago (it is being recovered in its original red "plastico" from the black we used in 1960). It is about 1/2" in dia and shows all the nicks where the leaves were trimmed off - and it is staying. The vine growers in north-central Italy should be alerted that Ferrari may be needing a source for vine! None of those junky northamercian vines, either, please.

Make no mistake, we really, really, want Ferrari to succeed with the Classiche program, but it is extremely important that it be done right, especially now that Ferrari is restoring cars in addition to certifying them.
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Bryan

Not only is that Vine from the homeland it is also metric.

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In my talks with Adam Rowley, Vice President Technical Services with Ferrari North America, The goal is not to win pebble, but to return it to factory spec's when it left. How that translates to judging, I have no idea.

 

Is this a done deal? You shipping your car over to have this work done?

Please keep us up on how it goes.

 

Yes and Yes.

I am just waiting for the ship to address from Adam.

I will keep you, wayne, wax and others up to date. I have no interest in posting on here since Ryan derailed my thread on it.

Also, I said "hi" to Mr. Vaglietti

 

Good luck with your resto!