water pump 355

Well said.

 

Hell, I have been out sourcing bearings since the early 70's. No one questions that they can be had for well under what Ferrari charges, no one! It became a fine art, sneeking bearings in from the UK for a fraction of the US costs. Getting them through customs was a challange as new names had to be made up so to not allert the agents. Anti-friction devise, thrust ring... all ended up on the customs hit list and recieved a 300% duty tax when they hit the shores.
Get back to your claim that we called you out on. The $80 rebuilt water pump. Ready to bolt on and drive away. Some how that changed to a discussion / challange about the bearning being sourced for under $200.

A long time ago I decided that I would not even post a reply on this site if I couldnt write something constructive and factual that has been tried and tested. If its theory, I say so, if its a thought or an idea to be discussed, I make that clear as well. The problem here is you post things like this $80 rebuilt water pump and some might take it as fact. On a 355, if it fails, not the end of the game. Do the same on a 348 and what do you have?

Yes, I'm calling you on your $80 water pump claim. Daniel posted accurate numbers from his sources. Brian posted the reasons why quality is needed. Many deal in facts, you do not seem to hold to that level.

Enough of this crap for me, I think it is time for me to take a break from this discussion and shovel some real horse **** for a change.

Dave

 

OK, that's fair. Lets flesh that out just a bit. There are two different 348 water pump "aftermarket" options that have been posted/re-posted.

I bought and installed East Coast Jaguar's rebuilt 348 waterpump. They specifically told me that they used new bearings and seals for the rebuild.

Total cost: $214 (with shipping included) + my old core.

Another respected fchatter posted an even lower-priced option (I've reposted his information on a couple of threads, but his original is here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136077588&postcount=17 )

So I personally paid $214, but similar rebuilds seem to be available closer to the $80 range, as well...but mine is from:

John DiGiacoma at East Coast Jaguar re-builds 348 water pumps. These water pumps have twice the Ferrari warranty and they lower parasitic drag by using better bearings. He also uses better seals. Call him at (302) 475-7200 or 1-800-475-9257. An old example of his work is here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ORIGINAL-FERRARI-348-WATER-PUMP-2YR-WARRANTY-NO-RESERVE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ42606QQitemZ4599528001QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

I don't want to get embroiled in this, but can you elaborate on the following statement?

 

It's from talking with him on the phone, and it's also in his eBay ads, but I don't know how much lower or why.

 

I agree mate. Im not picking on ND for quoting that statement about the 'parasitic drag'. But thats a bold statement to make by John DiGiacoma isnt it? How does he REALLY know that the pump bearings he uses do just that? Lower parasitic drag? Does he use C3 bearings or some NASA type bearing? Im not saying his pumps are sh*t. They are probably just as good genuine Ferrari pumps.

 

"

Use any damn thing you want in your own car, I could care less. Tell folks it is the **same as OE** without having a clue or facts to back that statement chaps my ass.

I have spent a great deal of time attempting to locate alternative parts for these cars simply to save money for the customers. Unless I can find an alternative that exceeds the OE specs and back that with hard proof, it doesnt get done, period! Brian and I spend a large amount of time on here helping folks fix their cars and trust me there are no checks in the mail box the next day. Well, to keep it honest, there are none in mine, Brians might be delivered in mail sacks. We are both rewarded with trust from our customers knowing we will not use their cars for test beds. Every sports car I have ever owned has been used for the "Mule Vehicle" testing thoughts, ideas, alternative parts, etc... Im OK with that. If I blow my engine I have to show up to the next Ferrari event in a diesel dually PU and simply appoligise for the noise pollution.

Change your approach to this and you will be on the high road. If you would have stated that their is an alternate part and you are do the quality testing on your own car (or you take that piece apart and verify the quality) the end result of this would have been far different. Blindly saying it is "the same as OE or better" because someone says so on the phone doesnt cut it in this market. Thats Honda and Toyota territory not Ferrari. Find a better and cheaper part and I too will be a customer.

Deal in substantiated facts, not hear say. At least state that you read this or that somewhere on the net rather than saying "I Know this" and giving some lame ass argument attempting to support it. Your information gathering efforts are highly regarded, now deal in hard facts and rise to the next level. Help in any way you can but dont cheapen the Marque.

Dave

 

Talk about computer challanged! My reply, point by point is in the shaded area.

Dave

 

I appreciate that you are going to post photos and reasons for your earlier statement. That sort of data, combined with my personal guinnea pig testing of the cheap aftermarket waterpump should give other 348 owners the information that they need to make informed purchases one way or the other.

It would have been even better had such information been available here for me when I was checking out that water pump, but the man was extremely convincing on the phone and to his credit I haven't had a problem after several thousand miles of driving with it installed.

In fact, I didn't see *any* complaints about his water pump back when I did my Fchat searches; no failures. More recently I've seen 1 complaint on-line that he's slow to refund the core deposit (not a problem if you are mailing your core to him).

And although it's not a great system, eBay has a feedback mechanism that rates him with only 1 negative transaction out of 787 positives in the past 6 months, which I'd hardly expect if someone opened up a water pump and found cheap Chinese bearings or some such substandard part involved.

So with no complaints against him on Fchat and nothing significant against him on eBay, combined with a good phone call with him, I went with his part.

It's installed in my 348 and if there is ever a problem, then I'll be letting my 348 Brothers know.

 

You're a good man ND. Dont stress too much mate. When I eventually do my major........ill either rebuild the pump myself or send it away and get it rebuilt to save me the hassle. I may even buy one like the one you have. I dont know this guy, but im around 99% sure that he would not use cheap/nasty inferior bearings in his waterpumps. Why would you stake your reputation on skimping on the bearings?? You WOULDNT! But I cant vouch for his parasitic claims though. That is an average claim IMO. You have done several thousand miles and you will probably get many many more thousands of miles from the pump too. Ill bet you it lasts till your next major/cam belt change. There is nothing to water pumps. Bearings and seals. Genuine waterpump or not........if the bearing is going to fail.......its going to fail. The sun is still shining, pap's still riding and its not the end of the world by any means.

 

Thanks, Pap!

You know, if I blow another engine, life will go on. No big deal at this stage of life. As long as my daughter still loves me and my son still smiles when I pick him up out of his crib each morning, then I'm pretty well good to go.

Even so, the 348 Brotherhood will surely benefit from Dave's forthcoming waterpump pictures and my continued driving experience with the cheap aftermarket water pump.

 

Now, that is accurate. No use of the statement "same" and a list of the reasons you chose to trust the seller. Based on that information folks can make their own decissions on weather to use this product or not knowing the FACTS behind your decission.

This may very well represent an excellent value. Time and research will answer the question. What is the value of an over-engineered part vs and adequate part. In my world, over engineered every time, when budgets make the question use this or do not drive, the answer is simple.

This crap of "He who yells the loudest is the rightest" has to stop. The shop / store owner is the under dog here because we are all cheating the car owners.
Loose the ego and deal with facts only and everyone here will benifit from your research efforts. Continue to post falsehoods or suppositions and call it fact and there will always be folks bird dogging you.

Dave

 

Life goes on mate. Keep on trucking.

 

Thanks, Dave.

I have great empathy for shop owners. Our tort system is stacked against you, for one thing, making liability a real problem, and owners want small repair bills, putting pressure on the other side of the liability equation.

That being said, I hope that I am not coming across as yelling, much less yelling the loudest. Perhaps my internet etiquitte needs some polish, so to speak. Sorry.

Perhaps it's different for various regions, but in my state there is a world of difference between "falsehoods" from that of "suppositions."

I do admit that I make suppositions on occasion, especially when I take someone at their word after having a conversation with them. Maybe I'm too trusting; I can see that being a problem.

On the other hand, if I post something "false" I can assure you that it is a mistake rather than deliberate, and I would appreciate the opportunity to correct any such error.

Thanks in advance for quoting or linking to any such problem.

 

I am posting these for Dave Helms, he will comment on what you are seeing here:
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Nice pics.

 

many times, the really experienced and trained professionals, those whose livelihood is dependent upon providing reliable cost effective work post an honest opinion on this forum. Too often, F'chatters are quicker to take the less informed path because, no doubt when $ comes first most things especially engineering can be circumvented. Heck, go into any store in any industry and you will buy a knock-off of an engineered product, yes it may fit the bill, but there was not the same development and testing undertaken. You pay your money and take your choice.


Thanks especially to Brian, Dave, Phil and Tom for their sharing on here and via pm's

Brian Stewart

 

"which will go a long way toward explaining why when called out, the FUDDERS don't step up to the plate): "

Back to you, I'm standing on the plate!

I think the photo's can speak for themselves. Think Ferrari was concerned with side load on the water pumps when they spec'ed that bearing?

Now that you are faced with facts what have you to say?

"Perhaps it's different for various regions, but in my state there is a world of difference between "falsehoods" from that of "suppositions."

Not when one claims facts based on suppositions. What color is the sky in your "state"?

Hell, I suppose there is a chance (Chicken Little could have been right as well) that someone makes that bearing but if I were a betting man I would wager a great sum of money that it is a Ferrari only application. I would also bet that ball bearings were used to replace these bearings on the cheap rebuilt water pumps (mind you, not known just guessed at). Rebuild a water pump for this application for $80? Not a chance in hell!
I considered buying one of the $200 water pumps simply to reverse engineer it but I think my point has been made, based and supported by facts and photo's without spending the money to do so.

"On the other hand, if I post something "false" I can assure you that it is a mistake rather than deliberate, and I would appreciate the opportunity to correct any such error."

Back to you!

FUDDER Dave

 

Rude of me to forget, Thank you Dave Handa for the help with posting the photos.

 

If anyone is interested, another UK source for 355 pumps is:

http://www.superformance.co.uk/355.htm

at around £350GB / $650US

 

It's good to see the sharing on the forum, but not good to pm "secrets" to a select few rather than post that information as well.

If you'll look at the Fchat stats, vastly more people lurk...just viewing/searching forum threads, rather than post or participate in pms to a select few shop owners/wrenchers.

Those are the people who are SOL when they do due diligence by performing searches for waterpump information because the data on the pumps isn't being posted (though may be shared in a few pms to a select few).

So I'd agree with you on saying thanks for the public sharing of hard-earned knowledge on the threads, but would strongly disagree with thanking anyone for sharing other "secret" information in pms to a select few, as that really does a disservice to the whole concept of a public technical forum.

You can't do an Fchat search for those pms, after all, especially if they aren't to you (which is pretty well going to cover thousands of lurkers on this forum).

 

Thanks for stepping up to the plate, for one thing. I for one appreciate the photos, and I agree that you have a quite valid point that Ferrari was concerned with the side load on the water pumps when they chose that bearing.

And yet you are still seeing those Ferrari waterpumps fail. I have to wonder if my cheapo waterpump will outlast them.

What I was hoping was that you would have had firsthand experience with the knock-off waterpumps, that you would have seen those fail and have had some sort of useful information on the failures such as a hypothethical "I've had 2 different customers with less than 10,000 miles on their 348 knockoff waterpumps flatbedded in with catastrophic failures" sorts of feedback.

In contrast, sheer numbers alone pretty well demands that a shop owner like yourself will have seen a few OEM failures; that's to be expected.

It's still good to see the OEM units dissected, though. Thanks for those photos.

Either you know or else you don't. If you don't know what bearings are used in the knockoff waterpumps, then you are making suppositions just as you accuse me of making.

You admit to guessing above. Fine. You are honest about it, obviously, as you are admitting...but "guessing" is making suppositions.

 

Hey Dave, did you get that secret information I PM'd you?


Can you believe this loser? What an ass.

Did you get the CD's of all the secret info I sent? Sorry they weren't in cases, it would have taken a shoe box for them all.

 

Why else would you be bad-mouthing aftermarket waterpumps? I give you too much credit to badmouth them on hearsay; surely you have seen aftermarket waterpumps fail firsthand.

But that information isn't on-line. Lurkers can't search for it in their quest to make an informed purchase.

Thus, you must be sharing it in pm's if at all.

 

There you go again hearing words I never said. I have never bad mouthed aftermarket waterpumps. I only raised a question as to their durability based on the known cost of high quality parts required for a reliable rebuild. I have never even had one in my hand nor have I ever laid hands on one so I have no grounds to badmouth them.

Further I have never exchanged PM's about them nor am I aware of anyone that has. Do you suffer from paranoia? You are beginning to remind me of Captain Queeg.

I don't know about you but I field about 50 PM's a week of a technical nature, answering specific questions about specific problems that would have little or no value here due to their very focused nature other than to lead others on wild goose chases as you so seem to enjoy doing. I also answer a great many questions that involve another shop so are asked and answered privatly to prevent embarassment or witch hunts like the one here recently against FOW.

You really do give indications of suffering from some mental malady and should seek help.