Blown Head Gasket

WOW! So my coolant leak was not the expansion tank leaking as suspected, but far worse! It turned out to be a small leak in the head gasket right below cycl #4!!!

I have been quoted 13 - 16 hours plus parts to repair it. Now I'm nervous that the front cyc head gasket may go as well, but would be far more painful to fix since it would require the engine to be pulled. These gaskets were replaced by previous owner's mechanic at his local Ferrari shop less than a year ago. Is there any recourse to take up with that shop?

Does this estimate of 13 to 16 hours sound accurate? The mechanic seems very honest and is well known in town. I want it done correctly, but it seems like a very large number of hours for that repair.

Other concnerns: Head warped or cracked? The water temp never got above a normal range when driving it before or after I noticed the leak. The coolant level was just about full. Only a small amount of seepage is visible.

Should I be overly concerned about additional damage at this point?

Had the car for a week and I find out it has a blown head gasket! What a warm welcome to my first Ferrari ownership experience

 

Head gaskets don't usually blow if just replaced, unless you are driving a high boost turbo. Your original gasket likely wore out from age/mileage. The fact that the new one lasted a year is worrisome...

How sure are you its the gasket? Usually, when a gasket goes, you know because you get antifreeze in your cyliners. This leads to smoking, antifreeze in your oil (and vice versa), etc, etc.

I don't think I have ever seen a blown head gasket diagnosed by a "leak."

If it were just a leak, perhaps retourqing the bolts would help.

If the gasket really is shot, it can be warped heads, a crack, etc, etc...

You should get a second opinion, if you can. Your mechanic may be right, but you are facing a significant bill...

 

Thanks! Yes, there was a small amount of oil in the coolant. No coolant in the oil. I was able to see it leak (very little) from the corner of the gasket. He said the same thing, that maybe the previous mechanic didn't get the torque setting or sequence correct. But it that it is impossible to tell until he gets in there.

There deffinately is coolant leaking from between the head and block. I saw it first hand about an hour ago.

My real question is whether our not it really takes 13 to 16 hours to replace it??

 

John, What part of Texas? James @ Norwoods (Dallas) is VERY good. (From what everyone has told me). I have talked to him and met him, but have not had to use him, yet. Good Luck.

 

External coolant leaks on an engine of that construction is the usual failure mode. That is not to say it is common on Ferrari's.

The estimate is not out of reason. The only way I would have given that low an estimate is being armed with the information that it was off recently. An original gasket and you would have gotten a time and materials estimate and been warned it could run into a lot of money. When those heads stick to the studs it can be a real job getting them off.

 

Before you panic... yes if you take the head off 12-13 hours is most likely right on... its a ***** to take the head off... the gasket removal is easy... replacement is easy also... putting the head on is not so easy... if its a QV... you will need the head bolt tool... cause they aint coming off with out it!!!

now ... I would retorque the head and see if that solves the issue.... if it has never overheated on you... then you could be ok... however as with anything Ferrari when you mention leaking head gasket... its never good news... I had my 85 QV rebuilt and they found that the block was warpped and had to find a new block!!! all because the previous owner overheated the thing... and just retorqued the heads.... BTW... it was running great, but somehow... #5 main bearing cap was found laying on the windage tray when the tore it appart!!!!.... so I hate to say it, for security sake I would take the head off, and measure to see if you have any real problems

The good news is engine can stay in the car. I too had a terrible first Ferrari experience... I fee your Pain!!!! lets hope for the best... the good thing is the enigines are really pretty durable, and will put up with a lot of stress.

 

Yep, broke a cam belt after 10 days of ownership of my Mondial QV. Still, these wonderful gems are just cars and they can be fixed and once they're fixed right - they stay fixed.

rick - houston
'79 308GTB

 

Thank you everyone! I'm very familiar with rebuilding chevys, Nissans and some other engines I'm embarrassed to mention here

Either way, it seemed high, but I think the mechanic is on the "up and up" and I must hope for the best. I'm hoping nothing is warped or cracked at this point and I get to simply move on after this major repair.

I will remind him to measure everything to be sure there are no other "major" problems while he is in there.

THanks again!
John

 

John,
First of all, honestly it would take me a heck of a lot longer than 16 hours to do a head gasket. (Then again, I am SLLLLLOOOOOOW). So I don't think that is an unreasonable estimate at all. If in fact that is a new head gasket, you have a bigger issue which is that a new head gasket should not leak. It probably means either it's simple (needs to be re-torqued) or it's complicated (head/block is warped or the gasket is damaged.) I'm not sure how you can decide easily. It's the rear bank, so I guess if it were me, the first thing I would do is pull the cam cover on the rear bank, re-torque the head, and put it together and see what happens. Pretty fast and cheap. Do it in a weekend and it only costs you a cam cover gasket (which are grossly overpriced at $100 a pair).

Did you do a leakdown test when you bought the car? A PPI with a leakdown should have revealed a bad head gasket.

If I can give some words of encouragement, they will be that EVERY 308 has some issues that a new (caring) owner is going to work through. I got mine and found out the next day the clutch was slipping. It needed a clutch, and a flywheel. I was not capable of doing the work at the time and had a very expensive local Ferrari independent do it. When they pulled transfer case cover to get at the clutch, they found out that the PO had repaired it with epoxy or something when the ring nut came loose and let the middle transfer gear work itself loose and wear a hole through the cover. I needed a new cover and a new gear, which we bought used. Total cost: $4,000 (!)---the week after I took delivery of the car. (Wife: not happy at all) But hey I had a new clutch and I knew everything was cool there. It took another 2 years of diddling on the car to get it right. NOW the car is all sorted. I have a LOT of time/money into it but it's nice to know it is RIGHT. It takes a few surprises and some money to get things just right. I'm guessing you bought this car to keep a while, so it's worth doing it right.

Keep a positive outlook! The car is worth it! Make it clear to your wife that this is your baby and means something to you and she will understand. (My wife understood I wanted a 308 my whole life and when I finally had the car, she wasn't going to let $4K stand between me and my baby. She's a good doober!)

Birdman

 

On a motor of that construction head gaskets will almost never leak compression so a compression or leak down test will not show it. External coolant or oil leakage is almost always the failure.

 

Brian, is retorquing of the heads during a major service recommended or wise? Might it have prevented this? I remember my mechanic doing this on my 78 308 GTS and also on my 328 GTS. He mentioned the 328 had two that were a bit loose.

 

I believe the OWM lists re=torquing the head during the engine service. I also believe that a new engine needs a re-torque at 1000 miles?? Both my cars had very loose head nuts. Before I would go ripping it all apart I would suggest re-torquing the heads. I believe new gaskets need to be retorqued at some point anyway, bet these ones never have. If it stops the leakage drive it a while and keep an eye on it. You certainly have nothing to lose.

 

Hey Brian, that is interesting. Why is that?

Birdman

 

Thanks everyone! I found out today from the PO that the head gaskets were NOT changed when he had the "top" of the Motor rebuilt. So it was probably due.

The quesiton is do I want to pay the extra dollars now to have the other one changed or wait for something to happen??

The mechanic said that I would not be waisting money by not doing it now and if it blows later in time, the same amount of labor would be required at that time anyway. In other words, it would not really save all that much labor to do it now versus waiting to see if something happens later.

The belts and pulley/tensioner on the rear head is new (changing belt anyway so we don't use a "stretched" belt). But I don't see a reason to continue to the front head if there is no leak at this point.

ThoughtS?

 

I'm a bit confused did the PO say that the head gaskets weren't replaced when they rebuilt the heads?In order to rebuild the heads they have to come of to replace valves etc.and I dont think you can reuse a head gasket.I dont undrstand what the "top" of the motor rebuild means

 

I second this question. But why anyone would admit they didnt change the gaskets is beyond me. Retorque them and see what happens. Then move forward from that point.

 

Birdman,
Head gaskets seal a lot of other things besides the cylinders ie: oil & coolant passageways.

The symptoms he's reporting are:
External coolant leak
oil in coolant

Nothing about combustion products getting into the coolant.

I'll 3rd: "How the heck do you rebuild heads w/o replacing head gaskets????"

I think I'd go talk to the shop that did the work & see if the'll tell you what they actually did.

 

I would be more concerned with this issue. To me this would indicate a pressurized oil galley next to a coolant galley which would be deeper in the motor/head connection. So you don't only have the exterior visible leak, you also have one internally that you can't see. And are there others?????? Take the motor out, not very complicated, take both heads off and find out what is up. And you may not see anything once the heads come off. But by all means replace all the required gaskets/seals/o rings etc. Do it right once and don't worry about it again.

 

There are oil feed galleys from the block to the head in opposite corners, not that far away from the outside edge of the block or far from the cooling jacket. The cylinder liners protrude above the block surface slightly and the rings around the combustion chambers are much harder material than the other areas of the gasket. Oil is going to be at far greater pressure than the coolant, so you would expect oil to flow into the coolant rather than coolant to flow into the pressurised oil circuit.

Just an FYI, my first 308, (which also had higher compression pistons) had some head nuts so loose you could turn them with your fingers, yet surprisingly it had no internal or external leaks of any significance. This is the reason for retorquing them at the major service intervals. Follow the steps outlined in the OWM.

If its leaked to long or hard enough to blow out the gasket, all bets are off that simply retorquing the heads will fix anything. But if it does, id just run it and keep a watchful eye on it.

 

Sorry I was not clear. I should not have said, "top end". The PO did a lot of work with all new seals on camshaft and above. He did not take heads off.

 

Just go with the judgement of the shop on this..

I'd agree with him if only one side is leaking I'd fix that side only. Have him go over the car though, as he knows what to look for!

He found lots of loose bits on mine......

 

Ferrari gave up doing retorqe's on V8 motors rather early on. By the time the 328's came out they had gone to angle torquing heads and were very emphatic about not retorquing.


I have never seen a properly assembled V8 head come loose.


The flat 12s do and they need retorquing.


None of the modern motors call for it and in fact we are specifically warned against it.

 

Between the fact that the liners stand proud of the deck surface and the head gasket design the motors are very heavily weighed towards cylinder sealing. Head gasket leakage on properly assembled Ferrari V8's is almost unheard of and when they do it is an external coolant and sometimes an oil leak.

Is is routine to see them get overheated to the point that the spark plug connectors and the plastic piece on the thermostat melt without head gasket problems. Pistons and rings get damaged from overheating but seldom head gaskets.

 

Checking in, to see how Moorespeed is treating ya!

..and talk wheels! LOL!

Hope all is well.

 

Pardon me for bumping up an ancient thread...but how did this all end?