456M Window Fix? Does a 1999 "M" need it?

Working at the dealership we performed the "fix" on some early "m's". When the "m" was introduced Ferrari claimed the windows were cured, that was not the case!

Is it not amazing that such a problem was not cured after
seven years of production?

 

The cooled plenum was not on the '99. I think that came out on the 2000 models. You can tell if it has it by the black cover on the top center of the engine in the rear.

 

Mel,
I believe the 1999 year model should have been fixed already.
In any case, you can easily check the windows yourself and verify how they seal: there is no rocket science about it!
Using the door key, lock and hold, to let the windows go up; open and hold, to let the windows go down.
Observe how they go up and down: there should be no movement fore and aft, only up or down.
Once they are up, there should be no gaps anywhere, particularly on the back seal.
You will also notice the door seals of the M type are of an improved design compared to the early type.
The M should also have the fuel return cooler sitting atop of the engine.
Good luck,
Saluti,

 

Many "repaired" 456 windows still have a small abount of gap at the trailing edge of the window - enough to pass a credit card though.

 

Ferrari originally told everyone that "m"s were OK. I recently saw an "m" that had a 1/4" gap between the window and the B pillar. Forget the credit card standard, you could slide a small phonebook through this gap!

Correct, I'm in W....waiting for snow! Vancouver has great looking women...

 

I test drove a 1999 456M model and this particular vehicle still has the window problem (no shutting flush with the door frame).
I'm not sure if newer 456M's (post 2000) has this issue or not.

 

I have seen 1999 456Ms with the window issue.

My 1995 456GT, with the fix, has no problems at all (and living in Oregon, trust me, I'd know!).

 

Mel,

What did I tell you. Ask the questions and the wizards here put forth the answers!

I am not surprised to learn that a guy from Vancouver would live in "La Canada", eh!

 

I owned a 1999 456M and it had the window issue "repaired" by Ferrari before I bought it. I always heard the wind noise, and could plainly see a gap... the windows were never right.

My 2001 didn't have the problem.

 

Hello,
IMO the sad part of this entire window issue is that it is so difficult to get to the bottom of it.
Ferrari NA instead of offering a solution as a retrofit kit, to cure the problem from the root, has the "tight-lipped-admit-no-evil" approach, probably in fear of being sued out of its daylight by angry customers.
They would admit there was a "correction campaign" offered at some time, but would not tell you if your particular car was corrected or not (to protect the dealer that sold you the car)
The dealers, either do not want to get involved with it, or simply patch up the work with rubber tubing under the lip seal of the door and hope you do not find out.
Ferrari NA instead of putting pressure on the dealers to be effective at servicing its vehicles, takes no action and allows them to get away with it.
The bottom line is, as far as I am concerned, that you are on your own and if you are lucky and persistent enough, you will find someone who is willing, able and competent to work on your car without messing it up and without overcharging you.
If you are not that lucky, then you are better off switching brand !

Ps: incidentally, the 456 has been the best selling 2+2 Ferrari ever, with close to 2,000 GTs and almost 1,500 M produced, therefore there should have been enough motivation for Ferrari to come up with a cure for the bloody windows.

Definitely not a confidence building issue !!

Saluti,

 

That is SOP for Ferrari. Back in 1980 when there was an undeniable oil burning problem with the 308s they denied it. They started fixing the motors at the dealer level after making all involved jump through all sorts of hoops. That got to be such a big expensive program they started to rebuild all the motors at a central location in Aston Pa. on an exchange basis. After several years of going through that they NEVER admitted it was a problem.

When the 550 wheels were breaking the problem was blamed on us. We had to fight for every replacement wheel we ever installed. I had a big fight to get a set replaced and before the job was even done we recieved official notice from the factory of a recall. They were denying a problem when the recall notices were in the mail.

The 456 window problem was most profound on the pre M cars. It was denied and denied and denied. Finally they admitted there was a problem and the factory was going to offer a kit to fix it and it was to be for the 456GT and 456GTA only. We were then notified that there was going to be a school to teach us how to perform the fix. We were also told the school was going to be over a week long. Schools for brand new clean sheet of paper cars were never that long. Then we were notified that the fix did not work and they would get back to us. Then we were notified there was so much problem with the fix (stories of windows breaking days later etc) that they would have factory people perform the fix in regional centers on a case by case approval basis and we had to send the cars to them. The fix was not a great solution and the results were very inconsistant. The factory did change the design of the seals for all the cars and some M's recieved that treatment at dealers. Since it never really worked out well many cars never got done and Ferrari just let the program die.



PS. One other thing. You say FNA is not good at holding their dealers to a good standard for repairing the vehicles. Ferrari North America is the biggest roadblock to that. Their support of the dealers and their training of the mechanics in the product is horrible. The dealers service departments biggest obstical are those ******** at FNA. There are many good people around the country doing a great job in the face of the overwhelming odds against them created by FNA.

The training is a joke, the tech support is a joke, the warranty compensation is a joke, the technical materials and manuals are a joke and the factory tools are a joke.

 

Brian,
I have come late, but have learned quickly.
I purchased the car in July from FSV and the deal was they would fix the windows, to the latest and best Ferrari NA standard, at the seller expense, while I would take car of other belmishes of the car.
They took their time to do it, allegedly tested the car and once they told me evertything was fine, I had it transported to Fl.
The first time I drove the car was a typical rain drenched afternoon: in no time I had water coming in from everywhere, the driver side wiper quit working in the middle of the storm and one of the headlights failed to pop up.
I then took the car to the local dealer only to be told the windows can never be fixed properly and that I would be better off taking the car somewhere else.
When I asked Shelton if the M door seals could be retrofitted to the earlier model, I was told it could not be done.
Later FNA instead confirmed it can be done, with some minor modification.
However, when I repeatedly asked FNA what was I supposed to replace or fix inside the doors, to solve the problem once and for all, I got nowhere.
I felt like I was dealing with the Mob: the lips were sealed!
Meanwhile the dealer returned the car to me with a loose armrest, finger prints and black smudges everywhere and several scratches to the leather of the center console from where I had asked them to remove an old cellular phone.
I could not describe my feelings at that point: I was apalled at the attitude of FNA, I was angry with both dealers and I could not believe such a prominent name like Ferrari could be so shallow behind its front.
Since I happen to be Italian born and raised, I felt ashamed as well.
However, (there is a bit of good news in this story) Shelton did point me in a good direction and the shop I was recommended to, on the West Coast of Florida, has indeed a successfull fix for the windows and appears also to be well versed in all kind of work requiring the use of brain.
That is what I would call a rare find!!
In fact, I am going back next week to have also the door seals replaced with the M type.
Hopefully I will be able to report the problem is solved and will put this matter behind.
However, my point in all this is the following:
With what confidence one can buy a new Ferrari, knowing the dealer employs gorillas in the service department and the factory is unwilling to stand behind its product?

I wonder if things were the same when the Old Man and Luigi Chinetti were still alive and in charge.

 

There is no question there are good and bad dealers and good and bad mechanics within those dealers but you experienced some of the problems I spoke of. FNA does not have a serious attitude towards resolving known problems. They as the importer and the dealer point of contact with the factory should be assisting the dealer network to finding solutions for the problems that are related to the assembly, design or engineering of the car. They do not. When warranty is involved they do not compensate the dealers in such a way as to resolve those problems either.


When the old man and LC were alive it was a different world. Good skilled workers that had pride in their work were not particularly rare in this country.
This society decided it has no more use for them and the compensation for such individuals went so low that no one went into those fields for a whole generation and now there are very few of us left.

A substantial percentage of the people I see in those jobs now graduated from migrant worker to MacDonalds to skilled labor with very low pay and poeple wonder why it is so hard to get anything done properly. It is no different in a Chevy or Mercedes dealer but those cars can be fixed by Gorillas.

 

You are welcome.

Don't be too worried. There are good people all over taking care of these cars. You just have to go to the trouble to find one. Your market area is one of the largest in the country and you have many choices. I and I am sure several people down there can make suggestions to that end.

 

After many years of owning many different marquees, I would only say there's no such thing as a worry- and hassle-free Ferrari. They simply don't exist. You can't justify a Ferrari by any rational criteria. After many years, I now approach Ferrari ownership as a hobby. I invest time and money, and in return, I get immense pleasure. At present, I have 2 "fun" cars: my current 456 (which continues the long-line of headaches I've had with every Italian exotic I've owned) and a Honda S2000. I drive the Honda when I just want to go out, burn some twisty roads, and not care if I warm it up or put it away wet...

Here's how far my attitude has adjusted on Ferrari's: when my 456 started burning oil last month and I pretty-much traced the problem to valves (likely worn valve guides), I'm actually *relieved* that the repair bill looks less than $10k. Cie la vest.

 

Ferrari cultivates their mythical image as their marketing effort. They do not advertise, either. Thus, it is easy for people to forgive or justify the problems associated with maintenance and other issues, in lieu of "a piece of a dream". Unfortunately, the original premise of building top quality super cars for a select audience has probably faded within the corporation to be superseded by an emphasis in the bottom line.

I wonder if the persistence of FNA in consistently denying any kind of problems with their cars goes along with the image of the perfect car that they so vehemently pursue and market. A dream does not have problems.

That said, when you build a high performance car meant to be driven on the roads, you are going to encounter issues. A F1 car's engine lasts a race. One could argue that there is an inverse relationship between performance and lack of problems. This issue was really immaterial for the original target audience of an F car; the very wealthy that did not worry about car maintenance issues. Now, we find ourselves trying to have a peek at the before mentioned myth, and yes comes at a cost. Not really much for getting a dream, but definitively a lot for everyday's pocket. As read in the forum many times, purchasing an F car is an irrational decision, and FNA knows it and leverages it to their benefit.

I agree that skilled labor is scarcer everyday. When mediocrity is good enough to settle for is easy to forget that premium anything comes at an extra cost. In my case, oh so happily I pay it!

 

I like the looks of the 456..

As Brian said, there are folks out there that will NOT settle for anything less than the best effort and results possible......they are rare, hard to find and are backlogged into the next decade.

Dealer interest fades pretty fast after warranty and especially if they were not the one knocking the Home Run on the sale.

But persistance is the key, not to get discouraged, and as noted above, remember that performance comes at a price!

It does seem that as the cars are no longer one offs, the failure patterns could be addressed better than they are, it seems to take the introduction of the next model! I've watched a perfectionist do this window repair, and after days it was finished, but he wasn't happy....

 

Ferrari was bad but getting better, Mercedes was good but getting worse, IMO.

Not that I've owned many of each but from horror stories from reputable sources......

The ex has put three trannies in her Honda van though, so they ALL have their moments...

 

There's some degree of truth in this, but honestly, the performance of Ferrari's isn't much greater than other marquees. Other high-performance engines come to mind that nearly equal (or do equal) Ferrari performance and have a better maintainence history (example: Z04/06, Viper, M-series BMW, AMG). To be honest, the Lambo V12s (well, at least the injected versions I've owned) have had a better reliability (The 6.0 V12 in my prior 2001 Diablo was a gem...).

I'm a dyed-in-the-blue Tifosi, my 456 is my only current exotic, but I still feel there's no rational criteria to justify a Ferrari - including performance. The closest thing to a "perfect" exotic I've owned - defined as high performance, exotic looks, and everday drivability with low worry/maintainence is..... The Acura NSX. I had a new Targa in 95, and another (a 93). Wonderful cars for the era, though underpowered by modern standards.