Update: 456 Smoking on Startup

I know a couple of folks here have asked for updates on my 2000 456M problem with smoking (initially on startup, now profuse smoke that persists during any engine running).

Car made it to Ferrari of Denver, they had it in the shop today to run initial tests.

1) they said it completey smoked out the shop. Had to open everything up and turn on the fans. Glad to know the problem repeated itself for the dealer, anyway

2) The ran a compression check, it "was all over the map". The car had a good compression check in July as part of my PPI (all 12 cyl 130 +/- 5 psi). They said no point in doing a leak-down, it won't hold.

3) They're now removing the intake to get a boroscope down the intake plenums. I'll know in a day or 2 what they find.

4) Most certainly something in the valve train, still betting on oil-seals or guides. Outside chance some funky gasket problem is involved as well.

I'll know more next Monday/Tuesday and will post with updates. I appreciate the interest in knowing if this is a valve-guide problem or something more random and specific to my car. More to come...

 

Thanks for the update. I've been wondering about this.

 

They said no point in doing a leak down? It is exactly the time you want to do a leak down.

It won't hold?

WTF does that mean? We know it probably won't have good numbers but we want to know where it is all going so we know how deep to dig.

Thats like not taking the blood pressure of a heart patient because you know it isn't going to be good.


You need someone that knows what they are doing.

 

Brian,

As always, you're advice is spot-on. I only had a quick conversation with the shop today as I'm on travel on the East Coast. I will have a more-detailed conversation with them Monday and will learn a bit more on why they felt a leak-down test wasn't appropriate/needed. Generally, FoD has been good to many FChat folks and they get high marks; I've been happy with their prior service on other cars (I had a 88 TR that had a cat/engine fire which they restored very nicely).

I guess I would ask that you blame me, the messenger rather than jump to a conclusion that FoDenver was at fault or not doing a proper job. I owe it to them to get a bit more detail than I was able to gleen from the short phone contact today.

I'll post updates and more info when I have them...

(and to those that asked, please excuse my anonymous posts here; some very bad experiences on other boards have made me a bit gun-shy about posting personal info...)

 

Point taken.

I am very interested not only so that your car gets fixed, well, and for an appropriate amount of money but also for my (our) education. The 12's have been very good but adding to the data base is a good thing.

I just posted some possibly related photos in the 355 section in a thread about 355 compression.

 

Update:

Talked with FoD this morning, they got a leakdown on the left bank, will do the right bank today.

Results show a number of possible problems:

left bank. Compression from 140-170. Leakdown results below.

#7 20% - exhaust valve
#8 26%
#9 10%
#10 14%
#11 40% - exhaust valve
#12 10%

4 of six also had leakage past the rings.

On the right bank, compression was 175-180 except #2, which was 140psi dry and 175 psi oiled (also indicative of ring issues).

Obviously, we'll learn more when the heads come off. Rings and valves look like the minimum repair need; hard to say the source of the problem at this point.

Hard to say what's up, with both exhaust and ring problems, did the engine suck something up?

More to come...

 

Whoa, that doesn't sound too good. Keep us posted and best wishes with all of that.

 

Pretty dramatic situation for what I remember is a low mileage vehicle.

How many miles are on this car?

 

24,000. Also, I had a full PPI done on purchase in July with good compression numbers.

I'm an optimist; I'll have a *great* car coming out of this, with a tight, new engine.

 

Well that's a great position to take, but the "why" will be the biggest part.

This is why I am so paranoid about oil changes.

I hope sincerely it's an easy fix with a solid explanation.

It is a beautiful car, however.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

None of that is good news. Would like to see the internals with my own eyeballs to see what could be learned.

 

I asked FoD to take pictures of internals on disassembly for this same reason. I'll post as soon as I have them.

 

That's the right attitude

 

Anything yet?

 

Now let's see how long the dealer takes to do anything.... hopefully soon.

 

I'm on business travel through next Sunday, and FoD has 1 other car with a deep-diagnostic/repair order. I don't expect they'll have the heads off until late this week, I may not have a substanative update until next Monday or Tuesday.

I'll post as soon as I hear anything (and pictures if/when I get them).

Thanks

 

No pressure.


Was reading the compression issue in tech section and commented on oil changes and their value.

Would be interested to know if a similar scenario is with yours.

No matter how you look at it, it's a bummer for you!

 

what year 456 is it?

regards, Jim

 

I would suggest that before anything else comes apart, a evap smoke test to the intake system be preformed. Second would be to collect an oil sample (multiple samples, sump and tank) and properly dissect the oil filter to analyze.
What type of oil has been used? Any overheat history?

Dave

 

Now that's a great point! Has not there been something stated about 456 radiators not being adequate for cooling?

This is all interesting for me to know as I have interest in purchasing a 456 but I do not want to inherit problems.

So, knowing as much as possible is of great assistance.

 

No overheat in the car since I acquired it this summer; I never saw the water temp over 190. The repair records do show a fix for a leaky radiator 2 years ago. No other notes regarding overheat problems in the history.

BTW, I'm nearly certain the Motronic 5.2 ECUs in the 456M keep a record of highest rpms, temps, etc. I haven't gotten the SD3 readout yet from Ferrari of Denver, but that's one item on my list.

Lead tech at FoD is out at 599 school; they've got another tech pulling the heads tomorrow, but nothing serious to be done until the lead tech returns next week.

 

The 456's and to some extent the 550's have a terrible airlock problem. If the gauge on either runs even slightly over center gauge, there is a problem with air in the system or a faulty sender / gauge.
The "M's" had the redesigned over sized air inlet in the grills to help with the airflow to the radiator but I never ran into a 456GT that would run hot (under normal street use) when everything else was right. Getting them to that point often proved a challange but was doable.

Dave

 

Unless there is a problem both the 456 and 550 have very good water cooling systems. The same cannot be said of the oil cooling system but that only comes into play at extreme speeds.

The 5.2 has a rather rudimentary memory. It will remember errors but not data.

 

U bought in FDenver? Or, is this just the closest dealer? I assume no warranty?

 

8 year warranty, 80,000 mile, first post. Next time I'll read more carefully.