Mondial Z

I guess in your line of work you get immune to seeing a lot of zeroes.

Here's a question, in such maritime accident law, what is the shipping company's lawyer trying to prove (liability)? Are they like a plaintiff's lawyer trying to collect the claim from the reticent insurance company? Do you represent the insurer or the insured?

 

Ah, a rotisserie! Going to bake it? Are you going to lay it up all in one shot? Have you vacuum bagged anything before?

 

Don't have a garage sized oven although I can guarantee a failly constant 30degrees (Celsius) here in the tropics!

My guys have only v-b things up to the size of the Mondial Z's bonnet before so this should be quite a challenge, if you don't have a go then you have failed anyway.

Manpower here is not a problem so the size of the thing is more logistical than overwhelming.

 

The short answer:
I try to work out what happened and the likely apportionment of liability if the case were to litigate. Then, ideally, I try to settle with the other side on this basis. If that fails then it's off to court. We generally act for shipowners and their underwriters.

 

The reason I ask about baking is that's the only way (that I know of) to get a full cure with a very slow curing epoxy resin. I think you'll need a very slow curing epoxy resin because with the size and complexity of the mold you are using, coupled with the complexities of vacuum bagging, you'll need many hours to lay the body shell up. Epoxy cure speed typically decreases exponentially with a tempurature rise of 15 deg. F or so, meaning tropical ambient temperatures require the slowest possible hardeners, and I think you'll still be pushing it. As I mentioned before, these systems typically need elevated temperature to fully cure, or they will be very weak (probably too weak to de-mold) and useless as body panels in the sun.

Also, hoods are nothing like whole bodies when it comes to vacuum bagging. The tiniest leak will ruin the job, and it looks like you have a lot of mating flanges to seal. Also, the complex recesses and undercuts will prove frustrating for workers used to relatively flat surfaces. The fuzzy fiberglass "hair," rough floors, rough mold backsides, etc. can also perforate and ruin a vacuum bag.

I urge you to have them start trying "dry" runs with a vacuum bag and vacuum gauge only before you even think about buying epoxy or reinforcement fabric. If they can get the flanges sealed, the bag sealed to the mold, draw a good vacuum, and get the bag tucked into every single little recess without "bridging," then have them do it all over again and time it. It may take hours to do all this, and if the part is already layed up and curing, the clock is still running on the cure cycle while you're playing with the vacuum bag.

Don't forget that layers of release film and breather/bleeder are almost certainly necessary, too, and these alone can take hours to fit into a mold this complex and large.

In extremely complex situations with such high ambient temperatures like this, a form of resin transfer molding is often used, and may work in this case, but it's a relatively advanced technique and require some specialized equipment, materials, and knowledge, and even the pros usually produce several insufficiently impregnated parts before succeeding with a good prototype.

I've followed this thread for a while before chiming in, and I think I have some idea of how much time and effort you've put into the creative side of this, and I'd hate to see the project end at this stage.

From what I've seen of the technical side so far, it's just not there, really not even close unless I'm really missing something. You could probably get away with a heavy, floppy, hand laid or chopper gun polyester/fiberglass (not vacuum bagged) body shell, but what good is that other than for looks?

Do lots and lots of small scale testing and dry runs, be careful not to pay for someone else's learning process (well not too much, some of this is inevitable), and be diligent with your materials and disposables selection and then decide if you want to proceed.

Thanks for listening to my unsolicited opinion.

Chris

 

Chris, I appreciate your comments greatly and welcome more. The extent of knowledge on FerrariChat is very deep as was part of my reason for laying everything out here in the open. Please continue with your constructive help.

I have enlisted the help of a technical resin specialist (in West Systems) here in Singapore (he flies in every couple of months) and he was initially sceptical about the project being possible with vacuum bagged epoxy simply from the size and shape of the car shell. What we did was to sit down with him and look at the specific problems much as you have done.


Initially a test CSM shell will be laid-up so that work can continue separately with the chassis fitment and other engineering type things such as headlight shells, polycarbonate/Perspex covers, etc. After that is de-moulded we can concentrate on the epoxy issues.

The resin guy believes that he knows a suitable system that they use here in the the tropics for yacht building that should give good results.

The method suggested by the resin guy for sealing the flanges is to use liquid/gel gasket (that stuff that comes in a tube). The rigid framework will help to keep the parts tight.

The outer part of the mould will be sanded and flow-coated to reduce problems from these areas.

I agree, dry-runs are essential! A bit like a pit stop, the layup process has to be synchronised otherwise I would waste a lot of materials (materials=expensive, labour=cheap). As they say "Practice makes perfect". One idea for the mat and other layers (see below) is to create lightly stitched together woven mat car-shaped "suits" that can be positioned in the mould more easily.

The approach that we are taking is to throw manpower at the time issue. Hourly rates here are so low that it becomes possible to use an army of workers to carry out the lay-up simultaneously.

Part of the dry preparation would be to make tailored air-breather and bleed "suits" that can be relatively easily positioned.

RTM was considered as an option but would quadruple the mould costs (at least) so I decided to leave that aside for now.

I appreciate that.

That is where TVR are with their production methods. I wanted more. A fall back position is to make smaller sections/panels and bond them together. The Huntsman Adhesive people here in Singapore are ready to help me with this if it is necessary.

One thing that seems to be working in my favour with this project is the enthusiasm that people I have approached have shown to help and advise with no cost to me. Similarly the GRP guys appreciate the challenge and will not be charging for failures. I guess I am either lucky or persuasive.

I am under no illusions that this is a simple task or that it will work the first time (or at all) but I will not succeed if I don't try. If things go wrong I/we will work out how to solve the problem. I am a positive person, if I wasn't then the Mondial Z and this thread would never have existed.

Keep reading and advising, I appreciate it.

Clive (a complete nutter)

 

I think there will be demand for much simpler conversions, you could sell kits that consist of front & rear clip, hoods and door panels. That is an easier conversion that more people are willing to undertake, as it leaves the "glasshouse", roof, windows and basic structure, intact. You are doing everything at once, like a complete new interior also, but why not start simpler? When you made money selling a dozen kits yould could build the ultimate Mondial Z for yourself. I'm just saying what I would have done and you're already deep into it. I keep following this thread with much intrest and hope you succeed!

 

Not a bad idea. I think, however, that an important thing would be to see what the end result could be. I haven't changed the roof much at all and I haven't touched the glass so what you suggest would be relatively easy to do. It would never be a DIY job for most people anyway.

BTW how is the 308GTO?

 

A not very good digital painting, anyone want to tidy it up?
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Looks pretty dang good from where I'm sitting.
Just terrific.

 

Is it two tone ( ie boxer trim) or is that just the graphic?

 

Nice!

 

LOL, no it isn't two-tone, that's just my lousy computer sketching skills!

 

For a lawyer that's pretty amazing!

 

The bonnet & boot lid outer skins have been turned out of the mould so that I can create the inner skins and the headlight openings. The car looks a bit of a wreck as we have hacked off the foam and filler skin but that was necessary.
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any updates fo jan, i have been following your build and look foward to each new set of pics....

do you recon you'll get maranello to approve it when its finished as a coachbuild !!!

keep up the good work

rich

 

Nothing much to visually report over Christmas.

The doors are going back on the old shell so that I can complete the interior shapes.
The prototype rear lenses have been produced and the layout for the LEDs and strobe lamps on the PCB has been finalised.
The bi-xenon headlights (and other lamps) should arrive from Hella early February so that I can create the headlight mouldings etc.
I have been in discussion with software engineers regarding the user interface for the on-board PC.
I have started work on the tilting and reclining composite seats.
I have sent details to the UK for producing stainless steel exhausts for the cars.
The prototype body shell should be ready by about mid-February. This obviously then needs to be fitted to the stripped down chassis after I have completed the interior shapes.

Unfortunately I also made a list of the things that still need to be done and this list is very scary.

 

I don't think I posted this year old video that gives a better idea of the 3D shape:
View attachment Jan 2006.wmv

 

Of course a lot of detail changes happened to the shape between January & July last year...

 

Another couple of poor quality videos. The rear was from January 2006 and the front was September 2005.
View attachment rear.wmv
View attachment early.wmv

 

Door strength.

He was bouncing up and down on it - no deflection.
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Ha, you choose the right person for the test. I bet you wouldn't let me have a go, let alone some of the real "big posters" here on fchat

 

very cool.

 

I measured the width across the wheelarches, 78 inches (same as the Testarossa) - a bit of an increase from the original 70.5 inches...

 

Have you ever considered making exact carbon fiber replacement parts for the 308's? There are so many 308's out there that I would think that would be a good business as replacement body panels become harder to find as the cars get older.

I appreciate you sharing your creative endeavor with us. That's a very cool (and huge!) project.

Paul