Setting the cam timing belts on a 355

Finally!

 

Nothing against you at all..Just the tone the thread has taken over the last number of posts. Sorry if it came off worng. I can understand why Brian and Dave are a little put off by trying to show how to do a certain procedure, when may times they have been dragged through the mud. I would and have done the same.

You are one of the top folks on this board for tech info, and I read all your stuff, I have learned a few things from you in the past that I would have never thought of, and I'm not afraid to admit it either.

 

"If I was a shop guy who did not want unhappy customers I would always use a wheel dial guage."

BINGO!

-Peter (not copping an attitude, just stating facts)

 

So a wheel is used to keep a custumer happy, then do you adjust the timing and if so whats the average that the timing is out? Or do you just put it on to check to see if its as near as dam it. Personay i have never heard of a custumer asking for a degree wheel to be used, not if he trusts the tec he takes his car to. Also from what has been writen on this thread you cant get the timing results you want anyway. So after hours of messing about with the timing is still not spot on anyways.

 

I will take that challange! I can back it up with dyno sheets when done for FNA on a street 360. 35+ HP gain with marks on before and after. I bet you can feel that.

Chaa,

We use .002" valve lift as our maximum allowable variance between all 4 cams. By any measureable standard, that is spot on.
Engine in the car belt change is just that, a belt change, not a major service deserved of a marque such as Ferrari.

ND,

Pick up a shop manual an READ it. The procedure is all there. No rocket science, just words.
I need thick skin? Maybe, you may be correct in that statement. The result is I simply sit and laugh at some of the advise I read now rather than reacting to it and posting a response. You won, but what about the other folks that want real /accurate information and answers?
I started reading this site just to see what questions my customer base had on their minds and ended up answering some questions. Now I simply laugh more, type less, and work a bit more cleaning up the messes left over from the new breed of repairs. Seems a shame to me but I am just a door knob mechanic, what do I know?

Dave

 

I said..."I challenge anyone to feel a seat of the pants difference between the timing makes and the wheel/dial guage method. There are a few cars which the marks are amazingly off so it does happen."

Hi Dave,

I should have qualified my statement to disclude a very few such as yourself with a very tuned a$$-o-meter. Most stats are made up when quoted! You know I think 35hp is just about where you really start to feel things. I am not sure. AS you know, I'm a lowlevel racer with not so good an A$$-o-meter. I'll make track changes to cars then go run them and not use a dyno (I don't have one and laptimes are what counts anyways) and sometimes unless the change is very significant I can't tell if I really made more power or it is my personal ability to drive at my limit mistake free over the number of chosen test laps. I think 99% non-pros are in this boat. How many guys right here will do a superchip ECU change and say they can feel it? It is well known in that industry (ask pro Jim Comforti aka landshark) about why those chips likely do nothing to extremely little. What about tubi's? Is louder percieved as faster? I do not think Federally controled sealed ECU smog motors have enough internal range to allow significant 35+hp change although the aftermarket wants you to beleive it. When people want real power they make changes and then go to aftermarket programable ECU's. So...thus I have stolen your word "consumer acceptable".
It is rare that an owner who drives his garage queen less than 3000miles a year detects a 355 exhaust burrble related to off timing and pro mechanics know it. You and your three buddies right hear on FChat are among the few who are going the extra mile. You guys are the Navy Seals of Ferrari mechanics and you guys absolutely enrich this board. I don't know enough to not do it "right" in other words when to take shortcuts. So I blindly follow the current dogma which has been know since the earliest day of the garage mechanic working on a hotrod 350 chevymotor...."marks get you close dial guage your cam." It takes so long to take the engine out and do all the work what is a little more time to use a dialguage and degreewheel? It is not a big deal and there must be 10,000 websites that tell the process of how to do it but certainly not on Ferraris. But if you think about basics and your goals it is pretty easy to figure out. Bruce Lee said once something like " When I started martial arts a punch was just a punch, later a punch was "like this", then a punch was just a punch again. The bottom line...its just an Otto cycle motor.
There are some on this board who will bust your chops on price for anything Ferrari as if part of a personal vendetta. They place no value in your intellectual property or your years of experience or your inventory or your facility costs your staff costs. They think you get the entire $5000 on a xyx major service tax free! They have no clue as to the economic costs or the economic pressures. I say you don't want them as customers anyway. I am glad there are a few guys like you guys who refuse to give in to those pressures... keep doing it right.

 

Hugh,

Wow! Thanks for the huge compliment.

 

That's why they bring the car to me... Because I use one and others don't...

Not true, you can get it spot on by following the workshop manual procedure and verifying that the procedure has been performed to the accuracy Dave states (tolerance within .002" valve lift between all four cams). That is exactly why the vernier adjustment exists on these cars, it's wonderful how simple and effective it is in getting it right!

Not true, with the proper tools, patience and following the factory procedures, it doesn't have to take that long. <grin>

But you do have to take the valve covers off to do it correctly... <very big grin>

-Peter (not as smart as Brian or Dave, that's why I keep wading in...)

 

Dave, I think that you know a great deal. In contrast, I don't.

I thought that "cam locks" locked in your precise timing that you got after using a degree wheel. Now, even though no one has yet bothered to post the proper "how to set Ferrari cam timing procedure," I've been able to deduce that cam locks are for some sort of low-precision short-cut.

You say "go read a shop manual" and I probably should, but even if I did, and even if I got it right (Englitalian tech-speak isn't for just any old layman), that would just help one person, me.

And even though I freely admit that you know a great deal more than me, here's where you are getting it wrong: this isn't about me "winning." It isn't about just me figuring out the right process.

I'm more of an Owner's Advocate. Instead of just educating me, I'd like to see the best processes available on-line for every Ferrari owner.

I want to see individual Ferrari owners become more passionate about these great cars, and one of many ways to increase that passion is by getting easy access to the best information.

Now, after saying all of the above I hate to then turn around and ruffle some feathers, but Ferrari owners aren't going to get easy access to the best maintenance/tuning/repair processes if Ferrari pro's are so delicate that each owner must walk on eggshells lest the pro's take their ball and run home.

And the other side of the coin is that owners who mindlessly attack the pro's for pricing/thievery or some other alledged abuse aren't helping to get the easy access to the best processes that build more passion for the Marque, either.

Frankly, I of all people understand and empathise with the business pressures that you face. I've been sued so many times that I've become a better attorney than the best trial lawyers. I pay the taxes, salaries, and insurance that you pay. And all of that is before a product or service is even being delivered to the first customer.

So I don't like seeing either extreme...not owners mindlessly attacking tech pros and not tech pros running away if posteriors haven't been adequately smooched.

It's just that very few Ferrari owners on this planet have the brass ones that I've got to say the latter.

What I do want to see are the hands-on processes used by the pros, and even there I don't expect uniform agreement (such things should be debated and there should be conflicting opinions on many matters).

But instead of just going off against me as if I'm trying to "win" some debate, this whole thread could have been more concise and more positive to all involved if a tech pro had simply responded to post #2 by explaining that "cam locks" hinder rather than aid in setting timing precision, and here's why...

 

+1

I didn't think anyone was bashing anyone...

 

must be bloody yanky english then
Anyways can anyone tell me how many degrees an average 355 is out?

 

LOL! Ha!

Well, maybe I need thicker skin.

 

And still we have no explanation of how to degree the cams properly.

Maybe it is gonna take someone like me to do it himself and then explain the process for DIY Ferrari owners to benefit from. Or maybe one of the pro's will be kind enough to explain the process.

 

coming soon....

 

And maybe some one can answer this question.

 

Cool!

 

Your a good man Phil.

 

Just finished a top end overhaul on a 355 and the factory marks were off 4 to 6 degrees when degreeing them in.

I frankly wish there were lobe center specs for all the ferrari cams as it is much more accurate than valve lift at TDC overlap.

d

 

As Dave said in an earlier post there is a cam timing proceedure printed in the shop manual for the 360. The 348 and 355 manuals(engine sections) have diagrams that show their respective timing postions for those engines. Should be fairly easy for anyone to follow those instructions. Regards, Vern

 

Right. Thanks, Vern.

Here's what the 348 Workshop manual says:
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LOL!! you guys make me laugh So theres clearly no avarage amount of degree that a standard 355 is out.

 

Here is a great link at Guy Crofts website that shows setting up cam timing on a DOHC motor

http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=213&highlight=cam+timing

 

Great write up but, ............................... the guy insists that you have the heads removed to degree the cams, and there is no way I'm gonna remove the heads on my car just to degree the cams, that is just plain silly. For what he does, build race engines, it makes total sence. Or if let's say your 355 has to have the heads off anyway for new valve guides, then yeah have at it.

Otherwise I'm timing my cams with the heads still bolted to the block.

Again, a fantastic, and detailed write-up by that guy.