Bob Rapp's Enzo for sale (With new Engine)

200k for an engine or 300k for a 599 AND the engine.

 

I did some asking around and there is nothing being shared by Spa over what is going on. If anyone here (US) claims to know any more they are coming to their own conclusions. The actual # is also a closly guarded piece of info. Ferrari guards that type of information not ony for PR but also for legal reasons.

Evidently some of the failures were more than just a valve spring, it also involved valve and piston damage. That is why complete engines are being replaced. They don't really want to take a chance on an incomplete diagnosis or repair. That is not really all that unusual for them either. PR, labor costs, future liability etc all make replacement a logical choice often. Also when costs are being tallied up forget about FNA list price for the replacement unit costs, those nowhere near reflect actual net costs especially if Spa eats the component cost. Not normal warranty practice but in a case like this it is a possibility.

This is following a fairly typical pattern for a problem with the cars. Quietly deal with the known failures, deny any model wide problem. If and when it becomes obvious it is model wide then start a campaign to deal with it. Have a look at the history of either the oil burning 308's 80-82 or the cam variators on the 360's. With as small a database as 400 cars that is probably appropriate. I think as high a profile as Enzo's are and as important a client as the owners are no one will be left high and dry if a failure happens. If that were to happen it would be the first few with accusations of mistreatment etc. But as I said before with the high profile of these cars and the demographics of their owners I doubt any one will be left holding the bag.

As to the replacement engines having the same #. That has been done often. I have recieved several engines for warranty replacement with the same engine # stamped in it.

 

Good information Brian, thanks. Is 200k a correct amount for a replacement Enzo engine (list price)?

 

Thanks so much for the reply. I had assumed the failures were solely due to overheating caused by fan relay not coming on. In your opinion could this have caused valve damage or is it more complex?

Best

 

From what I hear it is not being looked at from that angle but to tell you the truth nothing official and substantive is coming out about it.

When the 550 wheels were breaking the factory denied it when the recall letters were in the mail. It is a normal pattern. They will deny a problem until 2 thing happen:
1. It becoms so common it cannot be denied.
2. A fix is found. The factory will never be caught shrugging and saying "I don't know". Their egos won't stand for that.

 

If there is valve and piston damage as well, couldn't that also be attributed to a bad valve spring? It would make sense to me that a bad valve spring could cause the valve to stay open too long, and be hit by the piston. Could that be a possibility, since the engine does rev so high, and everything does happen quite fast?

 

from what I have heard from a person that knows persons with enzo`s is that

"A closely guarded ferrari secret regarding the Enzo, over HALF of them, are on their SECOND motor."

i told him that i was a bit sceptical about that and he said

"it 100% dead true. no ifs ands or butts."

I still don`t belive him but after reading this thread i am not so shure any more

 

Yes the failure is originally with the spring but an unknown number of them had a more severe problem than just a broken spring.

It is also not that uncommon on the 12's to miss the fact that all 12 are not pulling their fair share. More damage could be present than the owner is aware of.

 

That is a secret that would be impossible to hide.

 

Remember this is the same company that sent me a recall for a 1987 TR (Seatbelt issue) in 2003 (IIRC) NOt exactly a quick turnaround

 

Agree totally.

 

They had one here start making metal and the oil analysis showed it, they pulled it for that..

But remember with high power engines the longetivity is greatly reduced......but it's a matter of how you treat them as well...

Boat guys and drag motors change them like socks......!!!!!!!

 

They have had almost unlimited free replacements and several TSB's since those cars were new and if it was the first time yours had been attended to it is only because you did not complain or you had a very poor non-responsive dealer. The fact that they did finally do an official Federal Recall is largely because the Ford/Firestone debacle has all the manufacturers running scared about recalls and safety related items. Ferrari has always been very generous about fixing seat belts even on cars many years out of warranty.

 

Totally true they changed mine several times (TR).

 

And I think it a good thing...not a negative.

 

Whats funny is I never had an 87 TR

I had an 86 without the mouse belts and never had any problems.

-dsd

 

what RON/MON fuel do the enzos in the us spec use?

 

There is another aspect to it. Not knowing exactly how Ferrari handles it, but assuming they are like every other OEM, the data gets back to the engineers by way of warranty claims. Once a certain part failure rate hits an internal level, a team is put together to investigate it. Depending on the level of failures seen, the effort is usually focused on the highest failure. These things can take months to sort out, because the OEM goes through the entire supply chain and each level needs to either figure it out or show data that it wasn't their fault.

 

I am sure you are right but with a total of 400 units and the dollar value of a single claim I bet at 5 claims the alarm bells were ringing pretty loud and that is totally discounting the possibility of any similar failures seen during any step of the product or design testing phase.

Not all the dynos in the factory are in public view. I would not be surprised to find a couple of those motors being beat up on a dyno to find out what is happening.

Also at the end of this if we ever really find out what is happening I would be willing to bet that yet another subcontractor has supplied a substandard part. For all my jabs at Ferrari the stuff they build in house is pretty bloody good.

 

Did you just use Ferrari and supply chain in the same thought balloon?

I always figured that Ferrari's supply chain was a bunch of napkins with wine spilled on them.

Actually, getting serious here, sooner or later Ferrari's historical bias for secrecy is going to bite them in the butt during this Internet age. I can only imagine how many calls various dealers have already gotten from Enzo owners who heard from another owner who read about it here on F-Chat. What's worse is the almost all the dealers will honestly not have a clue about this problem/rumor. So when the dealer has to tell one of his best customers that he doesn't know anything this issue, he will sound like he is stonewalling, when he is not.

My guess is that the average Enzo is not driven as often or as hard as Bob drove his. (The strippers at Sebring will have to go down as a classic.) So perhaps this explains why the problem is not more widespread. Who knows?

Ferrari that's who. The Company needs to learn from other cases that it is best to get out in front of Internet rumors instead being beat like a "rented mule" (thanks to the Wire for that one).

Dale

 

Doc, you assume they think they have a lesson to learn. In Wonderland (that would be a small town in North central Italy just south of Modena. The locals call it Maranello) as long as people are standing in line to buy they are doing everything right.

When people quit standing in line (has happened twice in my tenure, once in the early eighties and once in the early nineties) they start rolling a never ending stream of heads until something gets better which also almost always happens in conjunction with an economic upturn. Hmm, go figure.

So see, by their yardstick they are doing everything right.

 

So if one were shopping for an Enzo would one insist on an oil analysis? Anything else special one might ask to be checked?

 

An oil analysis will not tell you about this.


Buy it, drive it , enjoy it. If it breaks hope the factory has admitted a problem and found a solution. If not fix it, it ain't a space shuttle, it's just a car. I can probably buy better valve springs in the good Ol' USA anyway.

 

A good test to find out if you have a problem is to find a long wide deserted road or entrance ramp. Slow to a roll. Put her in first. Get ready to crank in a touch of opposite lock. Firmly roll on the throttle. Unless you've done this before stay in sport not Race mode. Remember that you will be reaching 8200 in a few seconds. Anticipate that by noting the shift lights. Don't stare at the tach as it will be moving too fast and you never want to take your eyes off the road ahead at those speeds. Place your eyes so you just see the shift lights in the lower edge of your vision. Shift. Repeat Shift. Repeat shift. If you still feel yourself being slammed back as you engage third everything is probably fine. The interesting thing about performing this test is that unlike in your 275 GTB you don't have to run it for 10 minutes at WOT before trying it. As long as oil and water are up to nice operating temps you'll be fine and you won't need to worry about shooting flaming bits of muffler packing out of your exhaust which does attract the Police.

 

A 365 GT4 2+2 behaves the same way if you want to test the other end of the spectrum without spending $500k...