95 F355 Valve Guides.....Fact vs. Fiction !!!

Awesome post i found on the355.com from ferrarichat, deserves a repost for new members. enjoy

1995 Valve Guides…….Fact vs. Fiction

For the most part Ferrarichat has been an immense benefit to me while owning my two Ferraris. However, in the past year or so, I have seen a propensity for people to make claims simply restating what someone else has said but not actually checking to see if the information is correct.

What is particularly alarming to me is the amount of technical information that gets posted on this site that upon further review is totally inaccurate. Even more alarming is that it keeps getting recycled by more and more people and then becomes gospel.

Most of you have probable noticed that I rarely get into technical debates. I am kind of like Tom Cruise in “Days of Thunder”….I just drive the damn thing. I barely know a spark plug from a drain plug and when some of you start talking about volumetric efficiency I am pretty much lost. But some of the posts are so inaccurate that it’s clear to anyone that some of you haven’t a clue what you are talking about.

It’s ok to have an opinion that 360’s are ugly, or that a true Ferrari has 12 cylinders in the front of the car, or that the F50 looks too soft or so on and so on. However some of you, many who don’t even own a Ferrari or the particular car in question, seem to have a propensity to re-inforce totally inaccurate information you have heard from others without even checking to see if it’s valid info.

What am I referring to…………………1995 F355’s and the issue of valve guides.

For the past three years I have seen many posts from people on the issue of valve guides on 1995 355’s. As most of you know I just recently sold my 1995 Challenge, which at one time was a streetcar.

The valve guide issue became a serious issue in selling my car. Some people flat out refused to even consider my car, despite the fact that it had no valve guide problem at all, while others discounted their offers by anything ranging from $2000-$7000 because of this issue.

I had one interested buyer tell me that he was given advice on Ferrarichat not to ever consider a 1995 model year 355 even if records showed the valve guides had been replaced because some dealers have lied about the work being done.

In the end I was able to show several interested parties that my car in fact had no such problem at all. The car had nearly perfect leakdown results (6-8% on cylinders 1-7 and 10% on cylinder 8). I also provided service records from day one (12/94) that showed no excessive oil consumption. A car exhibiting valve guide wear would burn oil and show excessively bad leakdown numbers.

I am absolutely amazed at the overblown hype on this issue and the amount of misinformation some of you spread on the Internet, some who don’t even own a Ferrari. I thought in order to clear some things up I would present my findings on the subject as over the past month I have spent close to 20-30 hours researching the issue speaking to people both within FNA, the factory in Italy and other outside sources. I spoke with everyone, ranging from FNA’s technical director, 4 different crew chiefs on 2 different dealer Challenge teams who ran 355 C’s, to the head of engine design for the 355 at Ferrari SPA in Italy (through an interpreter), as well as the 355 production manager there as well (he spoke English). In addition, a very highly respected Ferrarichat member on this board who worked on several Challenge teams for over 9 years and personally oversaw a few 95 Challenge cars, also confirmed what my findings were.

Myth #1:

All 1995 F355 have valve guide issues and need their original valve guides replaced

Fact:

Completely false. According to FNA technical director Adam Williams, only about 20% of all 95-model year 355’s experienced excessive valve guide wear and needed them replaced. And in fact, about half way through the 1995 model year the factory changed over to a different type of valve guide (the ones that they replaced the old ones with on the early cars).

Myth #2:

Some have stated that since the valve guides were not sintered (formed and hardened by heat and pressure) then accelerated wear will also be seen later.

Fact:

FNA confirmed that this has never ever been an issue. The problem stemmed from improper seating of the guides and if no problem occurred early on then it will not be a problem in the future other than normal wear associated with running the car. PERIOD, END OF STORY!

Myth #3:

Valve guide issues can occur at any time during the life of the car and are more prone to experience these issue in higher mileage cars.

Fact:

According to the Ferrari factory in Italy and re-affirmed by Adam Williams, 90% of the valve guide issue occurred almost immediately or within the first two years of ownership. The few that have occurred in higher mileage cars cannot be confirmed to have happened at a specific point in time and likely could have been present for quite some time. Certainly the older valve guides may wear out faster but they don’t go from being in good shape to wearing out overnight.

Myth #4.

This is only a US problem due to the high sulpha content in our fuel and that Euro cars had different valve guides.

Fact:

Sorry but totally false. It was a small problem on Euro cars as well and the gas issue is inaccurate.

Myth #5:

Valve guide issues were only present on 95 models.

Fact:

Also false. Even with the newer valve guides post 95 production 355’s problems arose. A bad batch of valve guides found it’s way into several 97’s and at least two 98 355’s. Ferrari of Washington alone had two 97’s and one 98 355 that had valve guide issues discovered when each of those cars had higher than normal oil consumption.

Myth #6:

If the valve guides were changed on a 355 by the dealer then there must have been a problem. In other words why would the dealers change them free of cost if there wasn’t a problem.

Fact:

The amount of disinformation being spread in the past few years made it impossible for dealers to move 95 model year 355’s, even ones that had later production dates and didn’t even contain the old style valve guides. FNA finally decided to have all early production 95’s changed over even if there were no problems.

Myth 7:

Only 95 model year cars had any engine problems.

Fact:

I have already mentioned a bad batch of guides in other production year models but in addition some 96 and early 97’s cars had connecting rod failures (issues with the connecting rod bolts). There are also a few 98 specific engine related problems.

It amazes me how much inaccurate information on this issue is repeated by people many of whom, neither own a 355, have any experience with them, or don’t even own a Ferrari or have never worked on them. Because half a dozen people claim something is valid doesn’t make it so. Remember 99.9% of the population at one time believed the earth was flat.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net

 

+1

Thanks, Jon.

 

Only 20% of the 95 355's needed valve guide replacement during the TWO YEAR WARRANTY PERIOD. After that Ferrari no longer tracks it. We are still doing valve guides on low mile 355's. Many of those Ferrari gets let off the hook for because such a large percentage of the cars don't get many miles while the warranty is still in force.

I have 3 in the shop right now and they range from MY95 to 98 and from 13k to 34k miles. I have replaced bad guides in cars with less than 10k miles.
One of the cars here now was leaked down at 8900 miles and had 8% leakage. At 12500 miles it came back with a dead cylinder and had 46% leakage on the same cylinder. The owner takes very good care of the car and does not abuse it.


In 1980 Ferrari adamantly refused to acknowledge that the 1980 308's had an oil burning problem. In 1981 Ferrari refused to acknowledge that the 1980 and 1981 308's had an oil burning problem. In 1982 Ferrari had a program set up in Aston Pa. to rebuild large quantities of 1980, 1981 and 1982 308 motors in an exchange program to eliminate oil burning in the 308 motors.

Ferrari still refuses to officially admit there was an oil burning problem in the 1980, 1981 and 1982 308's.



In 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 and up to October 2001 Ferrari refused to admit that 550 wheels were cracking do to a poor design. Ferrari refused to replace the wheels unless great pressure and threat of legal action was made. I personally was involved in several such cases one of which took place in October 2001. We fought and finally got Ferrari to replace the wheels. We ordered the wheels and the recall notice arrived the very next day.

Ferrari still does not admit there is any problem with 355 exhaust manifolds. Interesting considering so many need replacement.


Ferrari lies the their dealers, they lie to the owners of the cars.

Believe what they say at your own risk.

 

What do you think the percentage truly is, NOW?
Do you think that 20% still represents the percentage of 95 355 valve guide issues up do this very day or is it way more?

 

It would have to be a guess and I do not believe in guess work but 20% is fiction as written by the great novelists in New Jersey.

 

i believe there are two types of bronze valve guide F355's (1995-1998)

1. those that have already had them replaced "corrected"
and
2. those that are going to need them replaced "corrected" (in the future)

in other words,
those that have taken a ****, and those that are going to take a ****

Cuz, they're all goin' to take a #@% sooner or later


in 1995 : 99.999999999% of all F355 purchaser's thought they were NO valve guide issues in the 1995 F355 (while standing in the showroom staring at the car). They were wrong.

I thought the world was flat too.

 

Another great point, makes sense !

Otherwise i believe Ferrari's 20% stat would be much higher during the 2 year warranty period if the cars had more miles.

 

So you believe myth #1 , is true?

 

i would say yes (just my opinion...they are people here you know more than me)

and i would say before 50k miles or so...... no matter how you drive it

(could go at various times...but depends on alot of things...driving habits, oil, original workmanship at time of build, etc )

heck, i don't know.....i really didn't read your whole original post (sorry)

 

Here's news most all Ferrari motors have used bronze guides, V12s, 308s, 328s, 348s, Flat 12s, bronze guides are used primarily in race engines as they provide better heat dissapation from the valves to the heads. Bronze guides in themselves are not exclusive to the 355 as some think

 

FNA swapped out the valve guides in 10-year old used cars to help dealers move them off the used car lot even though there was no real problem?

If it's true, it's amazing.

 

Jon,

I think you have figured out from the above posts that what you heard from FNA is their spin on the subject. You need to understand that for Ferrari to admit the problem they would be opening Ferrari to a recall and a class-action lawsuit. Why? Because the headers, valve guides, etc. would be covered under the Federal and State (California would be the ball-buster here) emissions laws. Violation of those would be a major headache for Ferrari.

An ex-FNA technical employee is a friend of mine. He stated to me that Ferrari knew of the problem, and of all the problems Brian mentioned. He had some other pretty mind-boggling stories to tell me. Hey, next time you talk to FNA, ask them about the 360s that all ended up under water in NJ after the Hurricane. You want to guess what they did with those 360s? I feel the pain of those poor souls that ended up with those cars.

That's wonderful that you didn't have to replace the valve guides and headers on your nickel. It is my understanding from my personal mechanic (I own a dozen Ferraris and few other interesting cars) and the ex-FNA technical guy, all F355s, except the Series Fioranos (supposedly they use 360 type guides), will eventually need new valve guides and headers.

A couple of issues for the uninitiated in dealing with Ferrari. Remember that when your car is in the shop for repair, whether being worked on or just waiting for parts, your warranty time extends day for day. I nailed Ferrari on this years ago on a new Ferrari I owned and they tried to stiff me with a bill. I'm not sure if this is a Federal, or California, law. But, being in California, it applied to me. Another cute law to remind Ferrari of is the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (not sure if I spelled Magnusson right). In simple terms, this law states that a manufacturer cannot require you to use a specific fluid, part, etc. on your car to maintain your warranty unless the manufacturer provides it for free. Yes, I said "free". Of course, most manufacturers get around the "parts" part of this by not allowing third-party vendors to make parts for their cars (or, in Ferrari's case, not allowing them to sell the parts they make for Ferraris to anyone but Ferrari). The fluid thing, though, was more difficult for the manufacturers. I also used this against Ferrari years ago as well. I have no idea what the current wording of this "Act/Law" is, or even if it still exists (probably does).

And, I bet you all thought the various manufacturers were just being nice when they started to offer free service during the warranty period, or transmissions that supposedly don't need fluid changes for 50K or 100K miles on the car. To some extent, it was a nice away around the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act.

Steve

 

thanks steve, awesome post!!!!!!

 

I have direct experience with this issue and my car is currently in the shop (Ferrari of Denver) with leaking valve guides. The facts of my case directly dispute several of your claims. My car is a 2000 456M with 24k miles. I had a PPI done in July, with good compression results; I didn't get a leakdown which was a mistake. ANY Ferrari PPI should include leakdown results as well. None-the-less, I meticulously documented my first 1500 miles on my car including oil consumption (none). At the next fillup, I noticed I had lost about 0.5 quarts of oil (no smoking I saw), on the next startup, my car smoked slightly. Within 200 miles the car was a crop-duster and had burned almost 2 quarts of oil. This problem came on VERY rapidly, at 24k miles on the car. This directly disputes this claim. FYI, you can read all the gory details of my case (including pictures) by clicking on my olders posts in the 456/550 forum.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=131243

and

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127583

I'm sorry, this is just plain wrong and us contradicted by my experience. Indeed, my car went downhill FAST. Good compression, no oil burning to a crop-duster in under 200 miles. Here's a few pictures of the leaky exhaust guide and manifold from my car FYI.

I'm not bitter; I would also suspect that any mid-90's Ferrari could be vulnerable to this problem; who would have thought this appeared in the V12 models? On further, post-problem research, I've found a number of folks that say they've seen this issue on the V12s as well.

This problem isn't a myth. It happens, and it happens to older cars and rather suddenly as well.
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Thank you for reminding me of that one Steve, with all the lying Ferrari has done I had forgotton about that one. To the few who ever knew about those cars we were promised that the cars would be exported to South America and sold there. Well guess what? A 360 we had in for some warranty work ran into a glitch we needed to call New Jersey for. The woman who looked up the cars file told us we must be mistaken, that was the wrong VIN, the VIN we gave her was one of the flood cars and those were exported.


Wrongo, they sold them here.

Ferrari lies, they are so accustom to it sometimes they lie when the truth would serve them better.

I can say that because I can prove it.

 

It's also B.S.

They never changed over all the early cars. We are still doing it. And the owners are paying.

Like I said, a warranty that covers these cars for time period is a free ride for Ferrari. They know damn well that only a small percentage of the cars will get a meaningful amount of miles put on them in the warranty period.

They fall back on warranty stats on occasion and it is just B.S.

If they want to talk warranty stats lets see warranty records for the flooded 360's or 355 headers or TR and 348 passive restraints or 355 cat temp ECU's.


Just read my signature.

 

Holy crap! you got it right!

I have seen this trend often, and the results of people buying it. Just try and find any manufacturer that will replace something as simple but important as a fuel filter in their warranty period (even when free 'service' is offered). They simply move the recommended service interval beyond it.

I don't have the experience to pass judgement on all 355's or FNA, but I am seeing these problems in the shop. I am learning a new level of dilligence in documentation as well!

E

 

Now I'm a bit confused; I guess it's hard for individuals who don't see all the data to really know what's going on in the field, but are all 355's and other Fcars prone to guide wear (based on Diablo's comments)? I thought the problem was only '95-97 (just from reading other posts, whatever that was worth).

Rifledriver - was the problem indeed linked to guide material, and was it fixed when they switched from bronze to steel?

 

FNA did that? I doubt it!

 

were are all the 355 apologists? i remember long running heated debate about this topic only months ago. many names called. guess they shut up. Sarti?

 

I'm confused... How do worn valve guides affect a leakdown test? Wouldn't that rather be an indicator of ring/bore health?

 

This topic has been beat to death on this forum, I personally could care less now and am not going to get involved each time it comes up. Better change those Bronze guides in your 328 as well.

 

A leak down test tells you if there is a cylinder sealing problem. The piston and rings seal one end, the valves seal the other. If the guides are worn sufficiently the valves no longer have the ability to stay aligned with their mating surface on the seats. It's like taking a rubber sink drain stopper and putting it in the drain crooked...water will leak by. The problem is magnified when you have such small valves as on the 355 because the seating area is so small. A very small amount of misalignment and the face of the valve is no longer on the seat.
I have one here now with the heads just removed. With a flash light shining in the port light can be seen around the seating area of many of the valves.

 

Nothing in the world wrong with bronze guides, or aluminum pistons or steel crankshafts....but not all are created equal and a material or alloy that works in a 32 Alfa Romeo with 900 or 1000 degree exhaust may not do well in a 98 Ferrari at 1500 degrees.

 

I would have thought the shape of the valve head and seat combined with the spring tension and charge pressure would 'self-seal' them.

How much wear in the guide before a valve goes reliably eccentric?