SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

I've watched this and other power add threads on F Chat for a while now. Carl this setup you are in final stages with sounds like just the thing to shut up all the naysayers that poo poo 308 performance. Please post a price list as soon as you can.

Thanks!

 

Well, if I don't get more, I may be inventing the first ever "F355 Mondial t" (yes, swapping engines). A nearly two ton car with not enough ponies, I need more!!!

 

I think Carl wrote 2 nice post and they are gone again.

I believe he had a couple of pictures of the mod pulley.

 

Looks like the kit is on EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-308-328-Mondial-Supercharger-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ010QQitemZ200066112594QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

MODERATOR NOTE: NOW THAT IT'S A FULLY COMMERCIALIZED PRODUCT, NO MORE "SEMI-MARKETING" IN THE MAIN FORUMS UNLESS AS A SPONSOR OR WITH SPECIFIC PERMISSION OF ROB LAY.

We all certainly appreciate you having let us "watch over your shoulder" during the development phase -- and wish you every success as you go forward with the commercialization. We look forward to having posts from folks who use your supercharger setup!

 

I have nothing to do with this product, but I thought I would post the DYNO from the eBay ad as this is what everyone here has been waiting to see.

Please note that on a 2 valve Mondial, this unit is producting 94 more HP. Not bad for all stock fuel/ignition components. But can any SC gurus comment on all the "squiggles" in the curves up at the top end? Detonation?

Birdman
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hey F-chat's back!

Hi Guys, This is my Mondial-8, so I have the originals of the supercharger performance graphs (better resolution and the A/F chart that goes with it) and a couple of nice videos of the dyno testing and first road test if anyone is interested.

My car is done! Now all I have to do is make it out to Wisconsin in a week and a half to pick it up and drive it home...! I'll post my impressions after I get the car back. So far I've been very impressed with 928 Motorsports.
Thor

 

Good question,
I'd like to see A/F ratio data for the dyno run, might shed more light on this instability.

A more important question is: Is the instability large enough to be a concern?

 

IMO, the A/F data is scary, it's north of 14:1 up near redline where I'd like to see it south of 12. I see what looks like mild detonation on the dyno curve (look at the noise on the line compared to the smooth baseline run). It's not a problem in itself really I don't think, but with the mixture that lean, I would be very nervous about sustained high power output. I don't think I would take it to a track day without lowering the boost at least a couple psi or getting more fuel....maybe setting the cold start injector to fire at 5 psi???

I looks good over-all though.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Clever! Now how would one accomplish that?

Birdman

 

The simple way is with a pressure switch wired to the relay that fires the injector. Then you might need a larger injector too, but that’s easy enough.

The way cool way to do it would be install a haltech E6x for $1200, plus $200 for an ignition module. That would let you control ignition timing anyway you want. It would also let you control the cold start injector to fire when the engine is cold, and let you add fuel with load and rpm. That would probably the best answer

….or limit yourself to about a 30% power increase and not worry about it.

 

This is both scary and interesting, given I am purchasing one of Carl's kits for my QV. My supercharged Tacoma has a "seventh injector" installed into the throttle body to work with the SC and balance the AF ratio at high rpm and boost. I will have to look to Carl to work with us on this potential issue, perhaps a little less boost to ensure safety and longevity is in order. The beauty of this kit from my perspective is it's bolt on simplicity, if more $$$ and invasive mods become neccessary, it becomes less viable IMO.

 

Can you comment on the jaggedness of the curve at the upper end? What's happening there?

 

.

 

Don’t be scared. I’m not sure what they are planning to do with pulleys, but if they sell you the same set-up they tested on a 2vi, you will make less boost.

The other thing is that there may not actually be anything wrong at all. I have learned the hard way that A/F readings are helpful, but are not definitive. I don’t know where the A/F data was measured, but if it is post Cat (tail pipe sniffer), it will appear richer than the mixture really is, because O2 is consumed in the cat. If the car has a functioning air pump or air injection system, that adds O2 and makes the mixture appear lean. The other thing is that 308 engine tend to be air pigs when you add boost and a lot of air escapes out the exhaust valve, making them look leaner than they truly are.

When I am tuning, I look at the A/F, then I look at the plugs to see if the color agrees. What is happening in the cylinder is what matters, you can trust a plug read completely. If the plug is the right color, I make a mental note of what the O2 sensor said, and go with it, whether it’s 10:1 or 17:1, it’s just a reference point. There may be absolutely nothing wrong with the tune, but the number along with the noise on the dyno graph would scare me more than enough to pull the spark plugs. If the mixture is fine, then a little less timing or boost are probably in ordered.

Now this is just my opinion, but I think now what I thought 6 years ago, the stock engine/fuel/ignition is probably plenty safe to add a bit of boost to and around 5 psi is probably as high as I would want to go for a 30% gain. Over that, I think you really want to get more control of the timing and fuel delivery. I didn’t install a programmable ECU in my car because I like to spend money and I didn’t just replace it with an even more expensive one because I really like to spend money. I did it because it was the only way I felt safe making the hp numbers I make. This is also the same reason I never actually made a “kit”. I just wasn’t interested in build myself a system to get 30% more power, I wanted 60+% and that would need to sell for at least $10,000 and require some skill to install. I just didn’t see a market.

This package is a bolt-on, that’s nice. If you need to limit yourself to 30%, it’s still 30%. If you want more later, you can add EFI or atleast throttlebody injection to supplement the CIS and control the spark, change the pulley and pump it up to 60%. After that, you should be thinking about an intercooler and real EFI.

 

I have purchased Carl's kit for my Euro QV and I am looking forward to being part of the final tuning and development of the Quattrovalvole version of his kit. Carl has offered to absorb dyno costs (here in SoCal) and we will tweak the kit for optimal performance as needed. In return, Carl gets real world info and dyno numbers to use and to post for other 308QV owners/potential buyers to see. Win Win. I will of course keep posting here as the project moves forward. I'm pretty excited, but am in no hurry to rush the final development and install manual etc.

-Lou

 

The 308s all have a 7700 redline and I thought the same was true for the modails, same engine.

The rule I always heard was "shift at the hp peak, and always stay above the torque peak". That is almost true, not bad as a rule of thumb, and much much faster than shifting at the torque peak. The only way to know exactly where to shift is to plug the torque curve and gear ratios into excel and calculate the rear wheel torque in the gears at the rpms. With the stock 308 torque curve, redline is the best place for every gear. If you want to risk a bit, in the low gears it's faster to over rev the engine.....not that anyone on this forum would ever do anything like that.

 

Thor,
Thanks for being the test pilot for this!

Lou,
Thanks for being the second test pilot!

I can't wait to hear some feedback from the owners driving experiences. This sounds like so much fun!

Birdman

 

No Problem! Carl has been superb to work with on this and I'm sure he'll bend over backwards to help anyone here out. He's as excited about this project as we are. And, I should have some exciting commentary from my drive back home with the car around the 22nd or 23rd. I'm hoping Colorado will have dug themselves out of the snow so I don't have to go too far south to get back home.
Thor

 

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the cliff-like drop-off in torque & power at below about 3700 RPM. Particularly when compared to the stock power band that goes well under 2000 RPM!

That's going to make leaving a stoplight or maneuvering in the driveway challenging to say the least!

I'd say this system would be more applicable to a track environment where you're almost always running in the high end of the powerband.

Also, consider the effects of having to launch at 4K RPM on the relatively weak s tock clutch. I suspect that a clutch upgrade would almost be mandatory.

 

Hi Verell,
It's not a cliff, it's where they turned the machine on to start recording data. The same happened on the top end, where they stopped earlier on one run than on the other. The runs were weeks apart. The data was stored, then overlaid later on.
Thor