SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

I've watched this and other power add threads on F Chat for a while now. Carl this setup you are in final stages with sounds like just the thing to shut up all the naysayers that poo poo 308 performance. Please post a price list as soon as you can.

Thanks!

 

Well, if I don't get more, I may be inventing the first ever "F355 Mondial t" (yes, swapping engines). A nearly two ton car with not enough ponies, I need more!!!

 

I think Carl wrote 2 nice post and they are gone again.

I believe he had a couple of pictures of the mod pulley.

 

Looks like the kit is on EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-308-328-Mondial-Supercharger-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ010QQitemZ200066112594QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

MODERATOR NOTE: NOW THAT IT'S A FULLY COMMERCIALIZED PRODUCT, NO MORE "SEMI-MARKETING" IN THE MAIN FORUMS UNLESS AS A SPONSOR OR WITH SPECIFIC PERMISSION OF ROB LAY.

We all certainly appreciate you having let us "watch over your shoulder" during the development phase -- and wish you every success as you go forward with the commercialization. We look forward to having posts from folks who use your supercharger setup!

 

I have nothing to do with this product, but I thought I would post the DYNO from the eBay ad as this is what everyone here has been waiting to see.

Please note that on a 2 valve Mondial, this unit is producting 94 more HP. Not bad for all stock fuel/ignition components. But can any SC gurus comment on all the "squiggles" in the curves up at the top end? Detonation?

Birdman
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Hey F-chat's back!

Hi Guys, This is my Mondial-8, so I have the originals of the supercharger performance graphs (better resolution and the A/F chart that goes with it) and a couple of nice videos of the dyno testing and first road test if anyone is interested.

My car is done! Now all I have to do is make it out to Wisconsin in a week and a half to pick it up and drive it home...! I'll post my impressions after I get the car back. So far I've been very impressed with 928 Motorsports.
Thor

 

Good question,
I'd like to see A/F ratio data for the dyno run, might shed more light on this instability.

A more important question is: Is the instability large enough to be a concern?

 

IMO, the A/F data is scary, it's north of 14:1 up near redline where I'd like to see it south of 12. I see what looks like mild detonation on the dyno curve (look at the noise on the line compared to the smooth baseline run). It's not a problem in itself really I don't think, but with the mixture that lean, I would be very nervous about sustained high power output. I don't think I would take it to a track day without lowering the boost at least a couple psi or getting more fuel....maybe setting the cold start injector to fire at 5 psi???

I looks good over-all though.
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Clever! Now how would one accomplish that?

Birdman

 

The simple way is with a pressure switch wired to the relay that fires the injector. Then you might need a larger injector too, but that’s easy enough.

The way cool way to do it would be install a haltech E6x for $1200, plus $200 for an ignition module. That would let you control ignition timing anyway you want. It would also let you control the cold start injector to fire when the engine is cold, and let you add fuel with load and rpm. That would probably the best answer

….or limit yourself to about a 30% power increase and not worry about it.

 

This is both scary and interesting, given I am purchasing one of Carl's kits for my QV. My supercharged Tacoma has a "seventh injector" installed into the throttle body to work with the SC and balance the AF ratio at high rpm and boost. I will have to look to Carl to work with us on this potential issue, perhaps a little less boost to ensure safety and longevity is in order. The beauty of this kit from my perspective is it's bolt on simplicity, if more $$$ and invasive mods become neccessary, it becomes less viable IMO.

 

I'm glad to see the Forum back up. I wanted to post the dyno charts Friday afternoon after I got them, but the forum was under maintnenance. I posted to eBay so you could see them.

Mike C: please advise what the cost is for becoming a sponsor of the forum: I am a paid member. We are members and sponsors of the Porsche forums we frequent - I would be delighted to join yours if the price is right. I just sent you a PM about this.

Mk e: "IMO, the A/F data is scary, it's north of 14:1 up near redline where I'd like to see it south of 12."

Please note that the A/F ratio is 12.0 to 1 all the way to 6500 rpm. We did not reach 13:1 until 6800 rpm on a motor that redlines at 7k.

We tune to the driver and their application (street, race, etc). In this case, we asked the owner: "are you one of those guys that revs to redline on every shift? or are you one of those guys that lives between 3 and 6k normally?"

He answered that he never goes to 7k, he's shifting at or near 6k - and as such this is tuned just right for him. Had he said that he often tickles 7000, I'd be changing his pulleys and bringing in his boost a little later, and a little less of it. This final tweak is a normal part of setting up a kit, it takes only a few minutes to swap pulleys to match the boost range to the drivers style.

Let me also add: if you look at the torque graph, you will see that the torque is starting to trail off at 6,000 rpm, and is beginning to drop faster by 6500 rpm. Time to shift to the next gear. Yes, you can hold on to 7000, but you have passed peak torque, and the driver who shifts down to put the engine back into its peak torque range will be faster and his engine will last longer to boot. Peak torque (and acceleration) was between 5000 and 6000 rpm.

 

Can you comment on the jaggedness of the curve at the upper end? What's happening there?

 

.

 

Just a note - be sure to thank Thor Zollinger next time you see him and his beautiful freshly-painted 1982 Mondial for some of this development.

If it were not for a 308/Mondial owner with the vision and patience to drop off his car and leave it with us for a few months, this kit would not exist.

Thor and his Mondial romp around Idaho Falls, Idaho, and are frequent attendees to the local Ferrari drives on weekends up and down the mountains. Only next time - he doesn't figure to be at the back of the line all the time!

So... next time you see him, buy him a beer and thank him for his contribution to keeping the breed alive and well.
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Don’t be scared. I’m not sure what they are planning to do with pulleys, but if they sell you the same set-up they tested on a 2vi, you will make less boost.

The other thing is that there may not actually be anything wrong at all. I have learned the hard way that A/F readings are helpful, but are not definitive. I don’t know where the A/F data was measured, but if it is post Cat (tail pipe sniffer), it will appear richer than the mixture really is, because O2 is consumed in the cat. If the car has a functioning air pump or air injection system, that adds O2 and makes the mixture appear lean. The other thing is that 308 engine tend to be air pigs when you add boost and a lot of air escapes out the exhaust valve, making them look leaner than they truly are.

When I am tuning, I look at the A/F, then I look at the plugs to see if the color agrees. What is happening in the cylinder is what matters, you can trust a plug read completely. If the plug is the right color, I make a mental note of what the O2 sensor said, and go with it, whether it’s 10:1 or 17:1, it’s just a reference point. There may be absolutely nothing wrong with the tune, but the number along with the noise on the dyno graph would scare me more than enough to pull the spark plugs. If the mixture is fine, then a little less timing or boost are probably in ordered.

Now this is just my opinion, but I think now what I thought 6 years ago, the stock engine/fuel/ignition is probably plenty safe to add a bit of boost to and around 5 psi is probably as high as I would want to go for a 30% gain. Over that, I think you really want to get more control of the timing and fuel delivery. I didn’t install a programmable ECU in my car because I like to spend money and I didn’t just replace it with an even more expensive one because I really like to spend money. I did it because it was the only way I felt safe making the hp numbers I make. This is also the same reason I never actually made a “kit”. I just wasn’t interested in build myself a system to get 30% more power, I wanted 60+% and that would need to sell for at least $10,000 and require some skill to install. I just didn’t see a market.

This package is a bolt-on, that’s nice. If you need to limit yourself to 30%, it’s still 30%. If you want more later, you can add EFI or atleast throttlebody injection to supplement the CIS and control the spark, change the pulley and pump it up to 60%. After that, you should be thinking about an intercooler and real EFI.

 

"Can you comment on the jaggedness of the curve at the upper end? What's happening there?"

Based on my experience at Dyno's, those squiggly lines are one of 3 things (and quite possibly a combo of several)

1) ignition break-up at high r's. If the coil, the CD system, or the plugs and wires cannot keep up at high r's, even a dirty distributer cap (on the inside) arcing within; you'll see erratic firing of the spark plugs look like this. They are still firing, but a little early or late depending on the anomoly - and that can produce a squiggly line like that on the dyno.

2) tires out of balance. I've had a car or two expereince a little this because the tire that is out of balance is punding the dyno roller each time it comes around. Remember: a spot on a tire that is 1 ounce out of balance will hit the road with 10 pounds of force each time it comes around. And on the dyno - I hit 130+ MPH.... I have to say, tho - this Mondial was shod with new tires and they felt great and smooth. When tire balnce has caused this for me before, the "squiggly lines" were much more severe.

3) SAE Smoothing setting. Not sure you can see it - but our chart shows the "SAE Smoothing" setting at Zero. I don't fool around with dyno charts - I post what I get. However - you can adjust the "smoothing" setting in the computer at the dyno and smooth those lines right out - and I have some competitiors in the Porsche world that do that commonly. I just don't.

You are welcome to look at other dyno charts that I have on my website and you'll see many of them get squiggly in the high r's. Unless its severe, its normal and not much to worry about.

 

I have purchased Carl's kit for my Euro QV and I am looking forward to being part of the final tuning and development of the Quattrovalvole version of his kit. Carl has offered to absorb dyno costs (here in SoCal) and we will tweak the kit for optimal performance as needed. In return, Carl gets real world info and dyno numbers to use and to post for other 308QV owners/potential buyers to see. Win Win. I will of course keep posting here as the project moves forward. I'm pretty excited, but am in no hurry to rush the final development and install manual etc.

-Lou

 

The 308s all have a 7700 redline and I thought the same was true for the modails, same engine.

The rule I always heard was "shift at the hp peak, and always stay above the torque peak". That is almost true, not bad as a rule of thumb, and much much faster than shifting at the torque peak. The only way to know exactly where to shift is to plug the torque curve and gear ratios into excel and calculate the rear wheel torque in the gears at the rpms. With the stock 308 torque curve, redline is the best place for every gear. If you want to risk a bit, in the low gears it's faster to over rev the engine.....not that anyone on this forum would ever do anything like that.

 

Thor,
Thanks for being the test pilot for this!

Lou,
Thanks for being the second test pilot!

I can't wait to hear some feedback from the owners driving experiences. This sounds like so much fun!

Birdman

 

No Problem! Carl has been superb to work with on this and I'm sure he'll bend over backwards to help anyone here out. He's as excited about this project as we are. And, I should have some exciting commentary from my drive back home with the car around the 22nd or 23rd. I'm hoping Colorado will have dug themselves out of the snow so I don't have to go too far south to get back home.
Thor

 

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the cliff-like drop-off in torque & power at below about 3700 RPM. Particularly when compared to the stock power band that goes well under 2000 RPM!

That's going to make leaving a stoplight or maneuvering in the driveway challenging to say the least!

I'd say this system would be more applicable to a track environment where you're almost always running in the high end of the powerband.

Also, consider the effects of having to launch at 4K RPM on the relatively weak s tock clutch. I suspect that a clutch upgrade would almost be mandatory.

 

Hi Verell,
It's not a cliff, it's where they turned the machine on to start recording data. The same happened on the top end, where they stopped earlier on one run than on the other. The runs were weeks apart. The data was stored, then overlaid later on.
Thor

 

Thor is correct - that vertical line up is just the machine beginning its recording.

You do not do a dyno pull in 1st gear.... consequently, you run up through first, then shift to second and run up to speed, then shift to thirs and run up top speed, then shift to fourth, hit the RECORD button for the dyno that they put in your hand and floor it.

This is why you note that when the chart starts, I am already at 3500 rpm. I am already in 4th gear, and the dyno drum is rolling. This is Standard Operating Procedure.

It is also SOP to measure HP/Torque in 4th gear on most 5 speeds... you want the gear that is closes to a 1:1 final drive ratio... 5th gear may have some overdrive to it so you do not use it for this measurement.

Conversely, you do not do a chassis dyno run in 1st gear, as the mechanical advantage of the gear ratios would yield inaccurate results. And 1st gear is the only gear where you could push RECORD on a dead-still inertial drum and start recording from 0 MPH. Maybe that's what you were thinking.