For those who believe aggressive driving began with Michael Schumacher

This was RACING! MS won 7 titles without having not even one battle like this one!

 

Here is another classic battle! http://youtube.com/watch?v=cS1vKYk_ywI

 

Please even Senna at his best couldn't top this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr_6mA8Q2tI


Joe

 

+1

 

Lol,with all due respect, there wouldn't be any of that cheat stuff if it wasn't for the move on JV in 1997 or Hill 1994. He brought it on himself. Anyway he's retired, why even bother starting this rant again............

 

Um, did you watch the entire video? That *WAS* Schumacher fighting it out with Senna in the second part of the video.

And then there was Imola '05, and again in '06.

Senna had a long standing reputation for holding up a parade.

And controversial driving didn't start with Schumi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7X3qH7RVzg, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUWKBG_IxNE, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGjTLt34nr8

Now that's racing. Nobody had to call them out; when they came together, they sorted themselves out and went right back at it.

I just wonder how many penalties today's stewards would have tossed at those two for "aggressive driving".

 

I'm guessing you haven't watched a race since 1993 then.

speedy_sam: Exactly, in the current rules Senna would be been given a black flag. Don't blame the drivers blame Max Mosley.

 

I don't blame the drivers or the teams, it's the stupid FIA changing too many rules and ruining the racing. Those old clips look like so much fun to watch and I wish today's F1 was as exciting as that.

 

Joe-Thanks for posting the 79 French GP-saw it on TV when it originally aired and Squire's voice bought back memories...still the best last 3 laps of a GP I've ever seen. Historic race-Renault's first win, first win by a French car driven by a French driver at the French GP and the first GP win by a turbo, but everyone remembers those last three laps. Also Jabouille's first win-he was a good, solid driver.

As for MS's moves in 1994 and 1997, how about AS driving into the back of AP in Japan 1990???? Love how the AS fans bashing MS forget that one...

 

Payback for AP's move at suzuka in 89. An eye for an eye, never happened again. What did JV or DH do to MS before that other than be beating him to the title.....................

 

+1

 

So both of you gentlemen telling me that it was ok for AS to "retaliate"?

AP was wrong in Suzuka 89 just as AS was wrong in Suzuka 90; both moves were classless-as were MS's moves.

The fact that it never happened again doesn't make it right, or justify assinine behavior.

MS drove in 250 GPs, AS drove in 162GPs. I'm quite sure we would have seen some more questionable moves from Senna if he had lived.

AS is just as guilty as MS in the "win at all cost mentality".....

 

Now I'm really depressed, because I remember those duels and what F1 used to be. In a few years F1 will be a spec series, equal cars running on bio fuel with no passing. I read that the 2007 F1 Ferrari actially has a narrower rear track. Give me fat, wide slicks on an F1 car that looks like a race car! What's going on here?

 

Agree 100%!!!
Two ideas:

ban carbon brakes and all that aerodinamic devices.

 

Spec series? We came close to that in the 60s and 70s as the vast majority of the field ran Cosworths with gearboxes that actually had to have wrist movement to change gears (as opposed to the finger twitches that pass for gearchanges today....). The racing was great back then...1977? Walter Wolf introduces a brand new car/team and wins out of the box. If you won 3-4 GPs you had an excellent chance of winning the WDC....

Today, the aeros on these cars would make a a Boeing/Rockwell/Lockheed etc. engineer drool-as would the budgets. Sadly, with all the appendages the cars have become ugly-and unstable when you get too close to another car, hence the passing-in-the-pits craze. Get rid of the aero appendages, ban multilayer wings and raising the ride height 2-3 inches would be a start...

Back on topic-looking at the video links earlier in the thread-especially the AP v. AS v. MS one, made me sad.

 

+1

both were heroes, as well "win at all cost mentality"

 

No it was not OK for him to retaliate. Nothing justifies what he did that day, even the fact the he felt the FIA was jerking him out of the title. But you're making it sound like Senna would hit anyone as long as the title was as stake. This is not correct. Senna could have easliy nerfed Mansell in 91 at Suzuka for the title (Mansell spun off on his own anyway). Win at all costs was MS to a much higher extent than Senna. Senna raced you how you raced him. He had many hard nosed battles with several drivers but i don't rememeber him hitting too many people on purpose. There is a difference between hard racing or even blocking and taking someone off because you panic when you're about to lose the title. Even against Prost they only touched in 89 and 90. Classy? No, but different than what MS did.

 

Can't agree with you;AP and AS touched in 89 in the low speed chicane but in 1990 AP got a better getaway off the line and AS drove right into the back of him and admitted it; FIA did nothing. AS said he never even lifted the throttle. Pure classless move by AS and FIA. Thank God no one got hurt.

Senna, like all human beings had his faults; if he hadn't made a bonehead mistake in Brazil 1990 he wouldn't have had to pull his 1990 Suzuka stunt...

AS was a great driver-top 5-but don't tell me that he was an angel-you can't explore the edge without crossing it....

 

The difference in the stand out incidents though when comparing Senna and Schumacher is that Senna punted people when he was passing or racing. He was faster than you and he was going to get by. Schumacher, in a cowardly sense, felt the other driver was going to beat him and simply intended to take him out.

Senna at Suzuka in 89 had the pass on Prost going into the chicane. Prost admitted later on to knowing Senna was there and chopping down on purpose. Senna had the pass made. In 1990, he was on pole. Once again, he was faster and felt he had a right to the corner, coupled with the preceding year's events.

Schumacher on the other hand pulls these moves in cases where he is not faster, hence his coming off as a goon, or scared. He tried to punt Villeneuve off when JV clearly made the pass and had beaten him. He pulled the stunt in Monaco out of fear that Alonso would beat his time. That's the difference. Schumacher's "win at all cost" moves come across as his being afraid of acknowledging that somehow has beaten him.

In the AS, MS, AP video Senna is obviously blocking. But, there's a big difference between blocking, which is quite common, as opposed to spearing the side of someone's car, or parking your car so no one else can continue.

 

Excellent points. Not to mention that the FIA moved Pole Position to the dirty side of the track at Suzuka in 90, and Senna felt once again he was going to get screwed by the FIA. As he felt he did when he came back on the racetrack at Suzuka in 89 and won the race, where later he was disqualified.

 

The difference is AS owned up to his misdeeds. He admitted that he hit Prost on purpose and later admitted that what he'd done was wrong. I doubt MS would ever do that regarding his stunt in Manaco or some other times.

Turbo era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BplWPco6REg&NR

 

I understand your points but Senna was flatout wrong; I think he was scared of AP in the Ferrari-just as MS was of DH or JV. The Ferraris came good in the middle of the season-AP winning 3 races in a row-and AS was feeling the pressure. I think whenever AP was around AS went a little crazy.....AP had the ability to get under AS's skin. Do you really think AS would have done it if it were Mansell in the Ferrari, or anyone other than AP?

Yes I know that AS owned up to his deeds-AS was a religious man and confession is good for the soul.

My point is in the heat of battle all these guys get a little mental, be it MS, AS, AP, etc....