oil question for AEHaas?

I do not know the answer. However, I have heard several rumors. My guess is that there has been a production problem, most likely with the cams. The thicker oil is a Band-Aid (R) and the thicker oil probably makes things worse - again, my guess...

It makes no sense to use a 60 wt. oil for any car.

aehaas

 

I don't know about BMW's but I use 20w50 on may cars.

 

the mclaren F1 uses the same oil (BMW engine) the castrol 10 w60 TWS ,it used to be called MOTORSPORT and it works quite well

 

Jeez, louise Mr. Parker. Why don't you familiarize yourself with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. You should know all this legal stuff.

 

From my post on BobIsTheOilGuy:

This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W-60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil.
This oil has 1,400 miles on it and it is still in use. The recommended interval is 5,000 miles, less if on the track. This is strictly off track use in town and on the highway, probably 50-50.

I will put this up again with my Enzo’s oil after I accumulate the same mileage on the 0W-30 GC I am currently running.
................................................................................................................
Iron___________ 32
Chromium _____<1
Nickel ________ 2
Aluminum ______11
lead __________ 16
Copper ________25
Tin ___________<1
Silver ________<.1
Titanium ______<1
Silicon ________ 7
Boron ________ 1
Sodium _______ 8
Potassium ____<10
Molybdenum __ <5
Phosphorus __1026
Zinc ________ 1135
Calcium _____ 1454
Barium ______<10
Magnesium ___1219
Antimony _____<30
Vanadium _____<1
Fuel %Vol _____<1
Abs Oxid ______34
Abs Nitr _______11
Wtr %vol ______<0.1
Vis CS 100C __ 15.8
SAE Grade ____40
Gly test ______NEG
TBN _________not done

This shows a typical break-in pattern and wear numbers to me. But notice that after only 1,400 miles of unstressed miles the sample has only the viscosity of a 40 grade oil. With this in mind I am comfortable using the 30 wt. oil I am running at this time in my Enzo.

I will guess that those 50 and 60 wt. oils readily fall a grade or two. So why not just start with a thinner, more shear stable oil to begin with and get the benefits of a less thick start up situation.

aehaas

 

And what about the Enzo, also specified for 10w60 by Ferrari ?

 

There may be larger things in your Enzo's oil.

Local Enzo owner GW (full name withheld) had his Enzo's oil changed at 4700 miles by the local FNA dealer and the observant tech noticed "...a couple of tails from broken valve springs in the oil". The engine was sent back to Ferrari for examnation and root cause analysis, then rebuilt and re-installed.

 

I do not know why they would recommend such a thick oil. I put one guess in already. Another guess is that one would know to put in a fresh fill of new oil before a race in which case you may start with a 60 wt. oil at the start and when you drive home with the thinner 40 wt. oil who cares. You no longer need a thicker oil as you are not on the track.

Again, look at the above used oil analysis of the Shell Helix Ultra 10W-60 oil. It shows that the oil is now only the thickness of a 40 wt. oil after just a thousand miles. Will it be a 30 wt. oil after another thousand?

I am running a 30 wt. oil in my Enzo (the book says I have to use the 60 wt. Shell oil) but I only drive around town. I have shown on multiple occasions that driving around town with a thinner oil results in less wear according to used oil analysis than running a thicker oil in the same engine. Do a search for my analysis at BobIsTheOilGuy.

aehaas

 

I do not want to disagree with anyone, but I must caution it is better to always use what the manufacturer recommends. The lubrication recommendations are based on detailed anaylsis by trained lubrication engineers. They do extended engine runs to determine failure modes and what engineers call "mean time between failure" by category. There is a reason. The gentlemans earlier post is a good guess. If a lighter grade is used perhaps the cam shafts will gaul. This is the typical thing thicker oils are used to provide protection.

The other small tidbit is always use synthic oils if your owners manual recommend it and do not if they do not. The petroleum based oils start to break down at lower temperatures about 425 Deg F depending on what part of the world the oil comes from. These oil give some protection at higher oil temperatures but as they break down and you lose lubricity (engine protection) varnish begins.

The synethic oils will protect slightly above 475 deg f but then stop giving protection quickly. They tend to provide less friction but in the wrong engine can cause it to sieze. They also provide a higher specific heat which is a fancy way to say it takes away more heat. Cars like Porsche that have the engine in the back are really oil cooled as much as air or water depending on the cars generation.

What makes the whole thing interesting is as petroluem oils begin to breakdown and varnish they still give some limited protection at higher temperatures than synethics. This is why we are seeing blends of the two.

If the manufacturer will not honor the warranty without using a specific oil he is probably telling us something. Usually they say or equivalent.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

Lee

 

My owner's manual says to use 10w-50 oil but no one sell this viscosity. So how am i suppose to use the manufacturer recommendation when you can't but it any long?

 

Read:
Development of the Sequence IV A Valve Train Wear Lubrication Testart 1, Sagawa et al:
Viscosity data reveals that the more viscous oil did not significantly alter the cam angle of minimum oil film thickness. Of greater importance is the finding that the higher viscosity oil continued to exhibit boundary layer lubrication. (Ergo thicker is not necessarily better).

Go to:
The Amsoil web site and look at 4 ball wear scars. They are bigger for 50 and 60 wt. oils than 30 and 40 wt oils.

Ergo a thinner oil may decrease wear compared to a thicker oil in some applications. Oil recommendations by manufacturers are averages and can be optimized by analysizing individual usage and conditions.

Read my chapters in the FAQ section here to learn more:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles

aehaas

 

John I would suggest to go to a NAPA or another high performance store. They sometimes offer hard to find high performance oil. I had a similar problem on my Shebly Cobra. it is a very high compression racing engine etc. I could not find the oil type needed at my local Walmart or Autozone. I found my elusive oil at NAPA. I bought the racing version which has a different additive package. If they do not have it or cannnot order the oil you need they may have a chart that shows you the cross referenced options.

If that turns out to be a dry whole. i would suggest you talk to a Ferrari dealer and they can give you a recommendation. I would be careful you do not run into a tech who has an idea but not the technical background. i would want it from the Ferrari (I assume we are talking about a Ferrari) engineering dept via a service bulletin. I am reasonably sure they can help you. A subtle change will most likely not hurt you. Worst case it would impact an engine over a long period of time. The key is to find the best alternative. The test data engineers do to select oil types and freguency has a margin for selection. today the math is called a Murphy" analysis or method of least squares. it is basically a statisical calculation that normalizes the data and provides with different degrees of deviation. The term used is standard deviation or sigma.

If non of that works e-mail me and i will look into it for you. i was a lubrication engineer many years ago and I know the gentleman who formulated the Exxon oils. We are still freinds so I am sure he would help us.
I think the two options above will satisfy your needs. This is not a critical problem and should be easy to fix.

I hope that helps.

Lee

 

Ferrari looooong ago sent out a technical bulletin stating that Agip semi-sythetic 10w-40 was fine as the alternate after Agip quick making the semi-synthetic 10w-50. If you search various Ferrari document websites (set up by owners) you can find the actual document.

Castrol Syntec is made in a 5w-50 if you felt strongly of abiding by the 10w-50 weight...according to the oil articles, going lower to 5w is not a problem, and can actually be helpful

 

Lee

I tried everywhere and couldn't find that viscosity. How do you find the standard deviation for a 88 Testarossa? I will see if i can order it from NAPA but i think they where ones I called.

Thanks For your help, John

 

Because the manufacturer made a newer/updated recommendation.

Read Ferrari Service Bulletin #00-25 dated 6/15/88
http://ferrari.stevejenkins.com/books/328_tech.pdf

Go to page 82 of 147 pages and you will find this document. According to the bulletin, from car with CN 76966 all cars came with AGIP Sint 10w-40 and it became the new standard. Obviously your car has been running for close to 19 years with something other than AGIP 10w-50 without ill effects, so I'm sure it can continue to do so. In fact, if your car was made after mid 1988, it never had 10w-50 in it, in the first place.

 

John, just use SWEPCO 15-40 in the TR. I've been using this stuff in my Daytonas, C/4, Boxers, GTO, F40, 512TR, 4cam, 308s, etc., etc. for years. The local Ferrari shop used it in all their cars except the new ones that use full synthetic oil. Then, they used Mobil 1 until Ferrari whacked their knuckles to use then AGIP and now Shell. Sponsorship money does talk....

Steve

 

I think that with oil that is still improving all the time, and materials available to engine builders also under permanent development, whe have probably reached a point that "better" only gives an insignificant improvement over "good enough".

My BMW 645 needs an oil change every 30.000 miles, and does not use a single drip of oil in between. I have now 50.000 miles on the clock and the engine still behaves like new.
So why bother about oils that are different from the manufacturers specs and violate warranty?

Mr Haas told us in one of his first articles, that 90% of engine wear is created when the oil is still cold.
With our Ferrari´s this may be even more than 90% since we do not use them as a "normal" car, at least I don't.

The implication for me is that we should handle our engines with the greatest possible care when the oil is still under its operating temp.
After the oil has reached its final operating temp, it is probably of academical concern wether we use 0w30 or 5w40 unless we use the car for racing purposes.
Again, why should we deviate from the manufacturers specs?
Ferrari and Shell have so much knowledge together.

 

Hans, the factory BMW oil change interval should be 15,000 miles, not 30,000. Although many owners choose to change the oil/filter more frequently....either at 5,000 or 7,500 miles. I chose the latter interval for my BMW 540 M-Sport. Surprisingly, my 355 Spider owner's manual recommends a 15,000 mile oil changer interval as well! I am changing it between 3,000 and 5,000 mile intervals.

 

Good evening John,

We are lucky to have such helpful forum people. Thank you all.

Hugh pulled out the technical service bulletin we talked about. He did alot of work to scan and post all of the data. Thank you!

The bulletin is right from Ferrari # 00-25 and the page numbers are as per Hugh's post. Ferrari and I quote in part says " AGIP engine oil Sint 2000
10w-40 oil is being used for engine lubrication replacing AGIP Sint 2000 10w-50 which is no longer produced".

So this is your answer 10w-40 These are SAE parameters which is the norm for the USA. There are other standards like API, Mil, ISO etc. Just look for the SAE 10-40.

There is also a chart in the Ferrari service bulletin that shows other possible oil blends as i mentioned in my earlier post. Briefly they are SAE 10w-40, 15w-40 or 15w-50

Steve in his post to anwswer your question uses 15w-40 in his TR and based on the Ferraris engineering recommendation that is is acceptable. I would use personally 10w-40 but Ferrari lets you choose!

I use 5w-50 in my Cobra engine so which is difficult to find. I am a little surprised that blend was not listed but Ferrari has spoken.

Hans had a good point that oils and lubrication are always improving. As a data point to prove this, years ago 1920's or so everyone recommended Pa state oils. In those days this was true becaue it has natural low sulphur content and just naturaly maintained lubrication longer under more extreme conditions. Today these natural attibutes, low sulphur and longer lubricity under stress can be done via modern chemistry. They also add additives that have names like copper inhibitors, antioxidents lubricen to name a few. They all protect our engines better. This is more important today because the manufacturuer to obtain better performance and gas mileage have raised the under hood temperatures. Your TR definitly is a high performance vehicle.

Good luck and thanks to all who sent responses.

lee

 

I am sorry Hugh, but my oil changes are every 40.000 Km, more precisely this is 25.000 miles instead of 30.000. Maybe this is different in the US.

My car has a pretty extensive guiding system, combined with all the other functions like Navi etc, telling me all service that has to be done, like oils change, plugs, brake pads etc., so I can&#180;t do anything wrong.
I had my first service at 40.000 Km, where only the oil was changed, nothing else.
Guess what the total costs were, a ridiculously low 300,- Euro, that was all, compare that to Ferrari Service costs!

Now at 74.000 Km my system tells me that the next oil change will be al 80.000 Km.
Most of the time I am driving German Autobahn's with 100Mph +.
So I am completely happy with this car, and see no need to deviate from the service intervals.

P.S. When I click on your account, I see a picture of your nice cars. How did you manage to get this picture there.

 

Thanks everyone for you responses