Long gone back to the other side of the pond I am afraid. The orange was a McLaren factory repaint on MM's request. It was originally in the FINA racing colour scheme.
I'm well aware of the F1/Ultima connection; however, you are desperately mistaken on the association you are making with "The Heavenly Twins" and how they related to the development of the McLaren F1. The basic chassis of an Ultima GTR can be seen in the first photo below, while the basic chassis of the McLaren F1 - which was made completely of carbon fiber and shares nothing from the Ultima - is pictured underneath that. Please explain how the second one could possibly be a clone of the first? Albert & Edward were simply test mules used to validate major components and design ideas for the McLaren F1 on the track and on the road, while protecting the integrity of the F1s exterior design from spy photographers prior to it's official introduction. The Ultimas were cheap to buy and their steel tube frames were easy to modify to suit McLaren's needs at the time. McLaren does nothing to hide the fact that the pair of Ultima's were used during the development process. In fact, all of the photos included on the Ultima/McLaren webpage you linked to were sourced from McLaren, most appearing in "Driving Ambition - The Official Inside Story of the McLaren F1", a book written by Doug Nye along with Ron Dennis and Gordon Murray. They devote chapter 10 of the book to the "Heavenly Twins". I'd highly recommend you source a copy and sit down to read it sometime. Here's a video showing the TVR Cerbera that McLaren Cars hacked up to use for development of the Mercedes McLaren SLR. http://www.aauk.biz/Cerbera/Cerbera_SLR_Prototype_H.WMV I would hope that seeing it doesn't give you the impression the SLR is nothing but a Cerbera-clone. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Not that I think it's required, but to add some hard data to support my statements here are the basic dimensional measurements of both the Ultima GTR and the McLaren F1: Code: Ultima GTR McLaren F1 Wheelbase 104.3 in. / 2,650 mm 107.0 in. / 2,718 mm Length 157.5 in. / 4,000 mm 168.8 in. / 4,287 mm Width 72.8 in. / 1,850 mm 71.7 in. / 1,820 mm Height 42.1 in. / 1,070 mm 44.9 in. / 1,140 mm Curb Weight 2,183 lb. / 990 kg 2,513 lb. / 1,140 kg Only the overall width really comes close, but even so the F1 is hardly an Ultima clone in any sense of the word. >8^) ER
that's what i was about to say, the two Ultimas used were only for engine transmission testing and major layout testing. while the actual carbon fibre chassis was been designed and built. much like the Enzo prototype that was based on a 348.
Man that F1 is a porker, a full 330 pounds "heavier" Is it no wonder the Ultima GTR kills it in any sort of comparison, the MacF1 is not even in the running and at 10 times the price! The Ultima is amazing, i think Aussie Dick Johnson had something to do with it early in the piece? http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/records/part6.html If i remember correctly, the MacF1 was a sales disaster, they never made anything like what they thought they where going to, and pulled it out of production.Ferrari never had this problem M
you have a point, but then they are quite different in terms layouts, a 355 is a souped up 348, or a F40 is a souped up 308 (more acurately a 288GTO)
They throught they'll build at least 300, but they built it at the wrong time, price was bit too high and took too long to build. The fact that it wasn't built comply to USA road standards hit the sales too.
Yeah, and the Enzo is fugly, looks like the designer was on drugs. 288GTO =Tick F40 = Tick Tick F50 = Tick [Slower than a F40, like WTF?] F60 = Cross, as in yuk.... M
A wiser man than I once said: "The world is full of people who are not able to admit when they are wrong." Go ahead, change the subject - that's cool with me... Man... that's what you get when the car has more than a pair of race buckets and a gigantic engine strapped to a cage. You want to talk about porkers, the Ferrari Enzo weighs a full 496 pounds heavier than the McLaren F1. The Enzo doesn't have a fully furnished interior, lacks any notable amounts of storage space, and only seats two people in comparison to the three that fit comfortably inside a McLaren F1. Where'd all that weight come from on the Enzo pray tell? I even went for a ride once in an F1 with four people inside - there was a girl sitting on the other passenger's lap - it was pretty funny. Ferrari is also a company that has been building road cars for over 50 years, with a well established pedigree. The F1 project was McLaren's first forray into the world of building road cars and their million dollar price tag put off a lot of would-be customers. Others were scared away because the car was simply too fast for them. For those in America who were interested, our government regulations prevented McLaren from even offering the car here. Now there's something like two dozen of them prowling around here and there would be more if not for the legal hurdles and red tape that surrounds importing one at this time. Ultimately though, what harmed the F1's sales numbers the most was a global economic recession shortly after it was introduced. I get the impression from your posts that you might not be old enough to remember that though. The fact that values of the F1 continue to climb to levels of almost double the list price some 15 years after they were introduced is a telling sign that in a more robust economic climate the F1 would have come closer to meeting their sales targets. We can't wind back the clock though - and McLaren aren't producing any more McLaren F1s. If you really want to talk about supercar sales disasters, why not comment on the countless numbers of supercar projects developed around the same time that never made it further than prototype phase, like the Jiotta Caspita or Yamaha OX99-11, or comment on the cars which were produced in extremely limited quantities like the Vector W8, Cizeta V16T, and Bugatti EB110. McLaren really didn't have to care if the F1 was a sales success or made them money. With the F1 project they established themselves as a player in the world of automotive production at the very highest levels. The results of the F1 project were integral in attracting Daimler Chrysler (parent of Mercedes Benz) to purchase 40% of the McLaren Group some years back and task them with the development and production of the McLaren SLR. Had McLaren not taken the leap of faith with the F1 I doubt we would have seen those things happen the way that they did. BTW: Please keep in mind I have nothing but respect for the Ultima GTR, it's actually my kind of car, but your arguments are oh so silly. I guess that's why you so brazenly list your occupation as "Trouble Maker" in your profile. >8^) ER
I have been told that there were a number of brand new McLaren F1's sitting in storage at the factory for years after production stopped. These were quietly sold off over the years. Any truth to this?
I think there's at least a little bit of truth to that story, but with McLaren's normally tight-lipped nature about all things F1, it's tough to be sure. If you look at the first 25 road cars produced, only 5 were painted silver (not counting #012). Looking at the last 25, you'll find that 16 of them were silver. Why is this important you ask? I heard one story that said when McLaren was building a car that didn't have a customer, they would often paint it silver as that was a safe/neutral color that would appeal to most people. The high percentage of silver cars towards the end is a telling sign in my opinion of problems finding customers. Let's face it, selling a million dollar car is a tough task no matter how great it may be. That certainly doesn't mean that all the later silver cars were built without actual orders, but compared to that first 25 which were all likely built with a specific customer's tastes in mind, you'll find a lot more unique exterior color choices in the mix towards the beginning of production than at the end. I also know that McLaren will provide long term storage for customer's cars - in fact I know someone who was given access to that space. They were not able to get any kind of listing of the cars that were there - just a report that a handful of F1s reside there under covers and out of sight. This could definitely explain why there's no trace of some F1s ever being spotted since leaving the factory. Some of those F1s in the storage area belong to McLaren who have managed to retain a sampling of almost every variety of F1. Those cars were supposed to be destined for a new museum to be built at the site of the McLaren Technology Center, however, that hasn't materialized yet. When it does I hope to attend the ribbon cutting ceremony. We know too, that certain principles of the TAG-McLaren Group purchased multiple cars - in fact members of the Ojjeh family may have had as many as five F1s. There was also a 1995 car that sat unsold in the McLaren Cars showroom for 2 years which when sold was then replaced by a 1997 car that sat for almost 8 before being sold. It should be noted they weren't actively trying to sell it for those 8 years. At the time they did offer it for sale they claimed that this second showroom car was the "last 'new' F1 available." All of these scenarios I mentioned could add up to quite the rumor about "unsold" cars left sitting. The truth on that will likely never be known with certainty, but there's a good chance it is based on some fact. >8^) ER
Prices I have heard of in the past two years range from $1.4M up to over $1.8M USD. One road car here in the USA that was in pretty sad shape both from a servicing standpoint and with the color choices in its interior was sold for $1.2M. The new owner immediately had the car returned to the factory for a complete makeover to the tune of roughly $300,000, bringing it back to life so to speak. A range of about $1.6M to $1.7M seems to be where prices are at right now for a road car that has been well cared for and has most factory updates completed. Cars with lower mileage or in their original form will likely bring more money. It seems that extra customization touches done by previous owners don't really help the value. GTRs that have been converted for road use like the orange one that was in Australia sell for roughly the same price as a road car. I'm not sure where prices sit for an unconverted racer as the LARK car was. None of the transaction details have been made public on those recently that I can recall. The single LM that has changed hands (twice now) reportedly was sold for a price very close to $4M USD back at the end of 2004. It's now in the hands of Ralph Lauren where I suspect it will remain. >8^) ER
wow, i always thought the mclaren was about the fattest thing on the planet, can't believe the Ultima is actually that wide! i actually thought the Ultima was lighter too.
I was fortunate enough to see 360C's F50 and the Macca roadcar side-by-side and the Ferrari was noticeably wider.
