Value of records(Service History)

Good Question, also I like to add is what if a seller is a very good mechanic and did all the service and maintenance himself but could not show proof of labor cause he did all the work himself in his garage but have all the riceipts for the parts. Now just because the car (Ferrari 3xx) runs perfect, looks good, and very clean, do you take his word for it or what?

 

From my experience of buying and selling all my Ferraris, I would think that any such Ferrari with complete documented service history would bring at least 10% more than the ones without any, or about 5% more than one with only a full recent service.
That being said, another thing to consider when buying a Ferrari is what comes with the car. A complete set of tools, owner's manual, pouch, etc. can help bring the price up a little. Extras like car cover, factory parts and service manuals, spare keys, brochures, anything related to the car will also help the resale in a big way.

 

Whether your buying or selling a car, condition should be forefront in your mind. All the records in the world arent going to help a beater much, unless the buyer is clueless. On the other hand, a 100 point car with trophies is going to bring big money if it has full history to back it up. But overall, condition is whats going to set the price. Records are just gravy.

 

Frankly, I think that history has a minor impact on the value of the car. I bought my 328 from someone who has a person fully dedicated to take care of his car collection (that includes two Bugatti racing cars, a Bugatti limousine, Rolls etc etc). That means no service history to back the indicated 18.000 KM (11.500 miles).
The car needed a major anyway, so that was detracted from the buy price, but apart from that no discounts were recognised over the price.
I have the car regularly serviced by one of the best Ferrari mechanics in northern Italy, former official Ferrari racing team (not F1). As he is retired, he works outside the official loop. This means no official documentation released for the work done. I have pictures, receipts (well, sort of...) and all what is required to confirm the job was done properly. The car is perfect, runs great, no problem. Is it worth less than another similar car with documentation? Having in mind that with modern computer techniques you can fabricate almost every evidence, I really do not think so.
Document can only be used to confirm the perfect status of the car, not vice versa.
Ciao
Eugenio

 

I think the best thing a complete set of documents including receipts for work done on the car can provide is that the actual mileage is true. The receipts should indicate what the mileage was each time the car was serviced. Otherwise, you are stuck with whatever the mileage is stated on the odometer.

 

I guess it all depends on who does the work. For those who can't or don't want to do their own work then I would assume that they would have the documentation for all repairs. For those who do their own work which I fall into that group I recoed all normal service and cost of parts with my labor time. Just put it on a spreadsheet and keep running the totals. I would consider this sufficent history and should support the condition of the car. But above all the physical condition is the important factor. This coupled with how the car runs in my opinion is the main factor in buying the car. It's nice to have the tools and OM but not necessary to keep the value. So as with all used cars what you see is what you get. It also apears that most sellers don't move the price much so you just need to decide if you want the car or not. If you don't have the skills to determine the overall condition then getting someone to do a PPI would help as long as the seller doesn't mind but the risk is first come with the money takes the deal. So timing is the critical factor. Enjoy the ride.

 

Many will disagree with me on this but the only really important documentation is the most recent service. Do I care when and by whom the belts were changed back in 1982? Not really. What I care about is when the belts were most recently changed.

Like Brunello said, records really only help reassure you that the mileage is correct and maybe give you a warm fuzzy about the general maintenance of the car over its life. They also may be helpful if you care to establish the ownership history of the car.

When we got the Mondial it came with some of the more recent service records. It was fun to flip through them and wince at things like a $7K major in 1995. "Oh look, the water pump was replaced in '95." Interesting, but what effect does that have now? None. It was 12 years ago.

Birdman

 

Condition, running and aesthetics should set value. Records and complete tools and manual sets confirm the owners dedication to his vehicle.

As a current seller, I did not add or subtract for having all the "right stuff".
I have done some work myself (noted) and have misplaced a few recipts for battteries, small parts and work done by a mechanic as favors. Does that make the car worth less--only to someone who wants to lose out on a great unmolested 308.

A friend of mine sold a 308 10 years ago. There was not one service bill. He did everything himself and he had the best running 308 I ever drove. He even coverted his car to full euro spec. Somebody bought a great car W/O RECORDS TO SUPPORT ITS MAINTAINENCE.

These are 30 year old cars that were not exactly Toyotas to begin with.
Papers in a file will not preclude breakdowns. Sometimes you just have to say WTF.

ps...I comepletely agree w/ Birdman--the most important service is the most recent service. What does it prove if the carbs were balanced in 1981.

 

Birdman, what i'm asking is if the seller did all the work and could'nt show any proof of the service he did, other than the receipts for the parts, but the car runs perfect and looks excelent, should the buyer take his word for it or what?

 

I'm selling my 328 right now, and it has complete records from day one... and I know that gives me peace of mind that billy bob did not take it down to the local exon station to have a major service done on it 15 years ago.... I think full records is a major plus, and the determining factor in deciding to pay a premium or not... all other things being equal...

when I bought this car, I made sure it had all books manuals, tools, etc... with proper pouches etc... and ensured that it had full service records... on top of that I made sure I got a Leak down and compression test done... having bough my first Ferrari with my heart, this one was done with my BRAIN! I think you take a huge leap of faith with out any records. - so if you like to play russian roulette... by all means go ahead!

 

Amen.
I'm looking at another Fcar as we speak. It is priced at the upper end of the market. Service records will make it or break the deal on this one.

 

I agree also- but aside from points already made- complete records also help in determining the type of owner(s) the car has had in it's past. Do I care that the carbs were adjusted 15 years ago- not really. But, I DO care that the car had an owner that would adjust the carbs when needed, and had the desire and dedication to keep the car running to it's potential. JMHO

jwise

 

I've had my 308 since new. Didnt know how important it was back then, but I always stuck my service records in the pouch with the owners manual..Don't know why. Now I have every single service record, all belt services etc etc from day one! from the same mechanic as well...Pretty cool stuff, ...

 

exactly my point. Service records help confirm a well cared for vehicle. They create a framework for the car's care.
Service records can not insure against future breakdowns BUT a well cared for car is less likely to run poorly, demand major service work or disapoint its new owner.

 

Exactly.
I don't really care if the history goes back to day 1.
I do like to see 15 or 20 years worth of data on a 35 year old car.
7 to 8 years of data on a 20 year old car.

 

I bought my 79 308 and was promised service records ,but they never came. I checked things out and the cam belts were done, but nothing else. I went over the car and repaired it as necessary, following the threads on this site. My car is now great. To me what I did is more important to me than any service records I could ever have gotten. To me part of the ownership of a car of this caliber is to work on it yourself and truly understand what it is all about. If I were ever to sell this car, I would sell it to someone who would understand how much I cared about the car and the effort I put int it. So what I am saying is, to me records mean nothing.


Mike

 

I bought a 308 Qv from Autoplace in Pittsburgh in 94... that had no real records - just a letter from the previous owner... who was an idiot... he now is racing in 360 challenge, and it seems to me he ruined the car and knew it.. and just wanted to pass it on to the frist jerk ( me ) that came along... needless to say it was a terrible experience.... the engine had been so severely overheated, that someone had re torqued the heads to the block... had I seen that in the service history I think I would have at least asked around if that was normal???? and it aint, unless you have had some serious work done.. I think the manual calls for them to be retorqued at around 5000 miles??... this car had 33K miles on it... so my experience was TERRIBLE as a Ferrari owner.. the thing was a PIG - Lemon... where as my 328... is a great car, and you can have faith in it since you know the level of service its had.

or thats my opinion.

Tom Spiro

 

interesting thread this, my car is from 82 and I have complete service records to 1997, including some eye watering bills from Maranellos in the late eighties. I bought it in 99.....as a rolling restoration! Birdman hit it on the head, its the recent stuff thats important, not what happened 10 years ago. Question. I have the original service book which I've maintained and the last voucher is 95,000km or 60,000 miles, which is a huge service I had done 4 years ago. Now time for a 70,000 mile checkover but no voucher and no recommended schedule. Did Ferrari not expect their engines to go beyond 60,000 miles?!!

 

I think it falls in the middle. You can assume that if the seller can produce receipts for all the parts he bought, he probably installed them on the car. But you have no way to know if this guy knows how to properly tension a timing belt, for example. So records from owner-service from the previous owner are better than no records, but probably not as good as records from an authorized or recognized mechanic. That being said, if you KNOW the previous owner and know the level of his work, that might be different. For example, a fellow Fchatter here in MA (spider348) rebuilt his tranny and engine a couple winters ago because he had a bearing failure in the tranny. The level of workmanship that he put into the rebuild (because it was his own car and because he has the skills and patience to do it right) was FAR beyond what I believe a mechanic would put in. I believe that his maintenance is therefore more valuable than if he had paid someone else to do it. But that will not make a difference if he sells the car to someone that doesn't know him. If I were to buy the car though, it would make a difference to me.

Birdman

 

This discussion kind of reminds me of the purebred dog scene. If your car doesn't have papers, it's missing some of its provinence or something. I think Ferrari owners put too much emphasis on it.

I once adopted a German Shephard from a local kennel. She was a wonderful dog, well trained, beautiful, obedient, and I had her for 12 years until she finally had to be put to sleep because her hips went at 15 years old. (Broke my heart, man that sucked). Anyway, when I got her, they told me "She is an AKC registered purebreed, but we can't give you the papers because the AKC forbids passing papers on dogs that are given up for adoption." (That right there is retarded, but outside the realm of my example!) So should I not take the dog because she doesn't have papers? Was she any worse of a dog because of it? If she did have the papers, would that guarantee that she would be more obedient, or less prone to get sick, or bite someone? No, no and no. So the papers were mostly bragging rights. I don't think that old service records on a Ferrari really prove much. They don't guarantee the car will run better or last longer. They only show that someone had the car serviced and was thoughtful enough to hang onto the receipts. Nothing wrong with that, but not enough for a large premium in my opinion. I still say that proof of a new water pump 12 years ago means squat. The nicest thing about service records is showing odometer readings at various times and helping to address mileage. Then again, I think that mileage is also way over-stressed in these cars too. That's another whole discussion.

Birdman

 

I cant believe some of the stuff im reading.....maybe thats why a bunch of these cars are junk. I will not touch a car with a ten foot pole unless it has a majority of the service completed with it.

All i keep reading hear is blown diffs on trs, and burnt fuse panels, and bad workmanship...no wonder....some of you guys are buying nothing but PAINT AND CHAIRS with a logo.

My 86tr has 56,000 documented kms, all pics of belt service from day one, and i have a log with pics showing every bolt, plus every oil change, and every bill with the mielage. IMO my TR is worth 100 grand plus.....why ? because all the tr's I see for sale in the 60K range need 40 grand just to run right....god forbid you need a new diff on that?

Im sorry, but i will pay top $$ for my next fcar...why, because its all about the documentation. Without these documentations, as far as im concerned, its a WHORE car. I want a car that the guy before loved, not just turned the key and pissed on.

 

Thanks Birdman very well put. But speeking of odometer I've heard stories where people disconect the speedometer then reconect when it's time to sell, I guess there is realy no way of knowing if the odo. reading is true other than the condition of the car.

 

I have owned cars with a glovebox full of reciepts, and I have owned them with none. Some of the best cars had none, some of the worst cars had a glovebox full. If your crazy enough to purchase a Ferrari based on how far back the invoices go, your taking a big risk IMHO. And I do not agree with the purebred dog analogy. A Ferrari in impecable condition is still a thoroughbred machine. The only document you need to prove its pedigree is the title.

IIRC Newman has a 308 on here he is totally restoring. That car will be virtually a brand new car. Others on here have cars that have had every mechanical and electrical system put into a high state of repair. Some of these cars are better than when they left the factory. There are cars that in the last 10-15 years took a dramatic nosedive in condition as time, and the owners lack of maintenence took its toll. Many of those cars have been brought back from the dead by enthusiasts here and elsewhere, and are now some of the best cars on the road, yet the invoices would never show you the car was a POS a back when.

So, Birdmans suggestion is really the only one that makes sense. Go by the cars condition today, and its very last services. Anything before that is almost meaningless. If you have them, great. If not, dont lose any sleep over it.