Barrett-Jackson ejects Keith Martin/For all you Barrett-Jackson fans...

Perhaps this thread belongs somewhere else, or perhaps the post strayed from the original subject, but does not negate the great comments, observations and opinions expressed here. This was a terrific read and the links pretty interesting too. I suggest we move this over to the general category section and continue the discussion.

For years, I have observed the auction mania and the potential for fraud and manipulation of markets, pricing and people. Big surprise. Some auctions, not BJ, are pretty fun and straight up. These are generally the ones you don't hear too much about except in SCM. The "headliner" national events have become circuses for the media, hucksters, egoists, posseurs and the neo-riche. They are incredibly entertaining and I enjoy the real live "drama". I especially enjoy the fallout after an event, like what we have now post BJ.

However, it appears as though the auto auction business is getting out of hand based on the reaction to this thread. I guess alot of people feel that the auction house have been manipulating the markets and buyers to their advantage. Hmm, you think?! LOL, The also come across as supporting, validating and guaranteeing the products they are selling as if they are uninterested, unrelated third parties. That is what they have tried to do with all their TV shows, periodical articles and appearances. The public has to return to acknowledging what they are - car salesman, pure and simple. Now we can proceed in a normal manner.

 

No, I didn't mean it in a bad way. I think that your average auction price thread was a good idea, and with those results being down 5% as well as the fallout from the KM vs CJ at BJ event now beginning to become public, would seemingly make the next BJ auction (down in Florida, yes?) even more...mmm...interesting.

For instance, now that BJ Arizona is down 5% year on year on average, I'd guess that BJ Florida will be down 10% to 15% year on year.

 

I'm a little surprised that a Ferrari enthusiast would actually be interested in this nonsense.

 

Ferrari enthusiasts are generally car enthusiasts, so anything to do with cars will strike a chord for most of us. There are of course the few fringe wackos who worship Ferrari to the exclusion of all else, but they have their own demons to deal with, so it wouldn't be fair to pile on them.

 

http://fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/2007/01/27/barrett-jacksons-westworld-tents-turn-out-to-be-a-house-of-cards/

Looks like the B-J piece has been taken down. Lawyers musta' gotten to em'.

 

To me that's a good sign for the hobby and collector. I guess B-J was able to read the article and started to sweat a few drops. They know they are going to be watched closer than ever now in Florida, and their "game" is just about over for the time being.

 

I bet Rob Lay is glad that nobody followed up on this request...........

Of course I wish I saved it. hint hint

JM

 

It will be interesting to see if a lack of chandelier or shill bids lowers prices more than expected.

 

I have it if anyone thinks it will serve any purpose

 

the article is still cached in Google:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:kcUdxTXyyAIJ:fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/2007/01/27/barrett-jacksons-westworld-tents-turn-out-to-be-a-house-of-cards/+barrett-jackson+fraud&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6

 

Thank you - how long will that stay in google?
It's the first time I've been able to read the comments on the blog.

 

The blog comments were good. The author should have left them up even with the article pulled.

From the blog comments you learn that there was no "3 minute rule" and that the cars being seen trucked backed to the BJ warehouse were done so because BJ serves as a shipping agent for buyers (some who aren't even present).

You also learn that the people defending BJ admit that chandelier bids are going on at other auctions.

...no one explained the Futureliner fiasco from last year, though.

 

Don't you feel Jackson has also rediculously overplayed his hand with the City of Scottsdale? He has been threatening them with a move to Glendale for two years, yet I thought I read where he extended with Scottsdale for '08 right quick.

 

My wife and I went for the 1st time... it will be the last time.

No need to support anyone with this amount of "controversy, turmoil, etc."

We paid hard earned $ to get there and see the cars and the show.

Both were a major dissapointment!

 

For the purpose of this discussion, there are two types of auctions – lots offered with and without reserve. Sales without reserve should be the simplest.

The rules vary by state, but most are governed by the Uniform Commercial Code. In every state I’m aware of, it is illegal for either the owner or the house to bid on a lot offered without reserve. Thus, with an ethical auction house and vendor, the bidder should have nothing to consider aside from whether or not he or she wants to pay a given price for the lot. The opposing bidder will always be a real one. This is why the prices at a no reserve estate sale conducted by a major auction house generally break the bank. Everyone involved has a high degree of confidence that everything is exactly as it seems. Bidders believe they may get a bargain because the seller is deceased (or is clearly selling out his entire collection) and won’t be bidding on his own lots. Of course, the more bidders on a given lot, generally the higher the final bid price will be.

In the no reserve scenario, the main complication comes when the seller is not willing to truly let the lot “fly” on its own. Such owners have been known to bid, either directly, or indirectly via a shill, on his own lots. Although this is not legal, in fairness to the auction houses, the auctioneer often doesn’t know the seller by sight, and thus cannot decline a bid from him. Even if he does know the seller, he certainly can’t recognize all the owner’s friends.

An auction company obviously cannot file charges under the U.C.C., so the best they can do is to discourage the practice by strictly enforcing commission charges. Most ethical houses will charge both buyer’s and seller’s commissions, and may also bar sellers with a history of "buybacks" from consigning to future auctions.

Here’s where an unethical auction house can add to the problem. Firstly, if the house either waives buy back fees, or makes advance deals on them, it is in effect colluding with the seller to cheat, both ethically and legally.

Secondly, an “all no reserve” consignment sale (as opposed to an estate sale) creates other opportunities for an unethical auction house. In general, the sellers still have a minimum price in mind. An unethical house will try to find out what that minimum price is and therefore know that if the lot is hammered sold below the seller’s minimum price, it is highly likely that the seller will buy it back. They don’t want that because even if they enforce their penalties, there is lots of unpleasantness.

In these cases, if the unethical auction house can get the seller to reveal this “minimum price”, then they can (illegally) bid against the live bidder in an attempt to move the price to the point where the seller won’t buy it back. In this case, if the car ends up sold to the seller (ie no live bidders at the seller’s minimum price), then the seller gets hurt because he pays buy back fees on a larger number. If the car sells to a live bidder, that bidder gets hurt because the house bids against him until the seller’s minimum was reached, and he did not get to buy the car at the point where the last opposing live bidder quit.

Sorry this is so long, but as you can see, it's not a simple topic. It one more reason that buying at auction is a buyer beware situation - your only protection may be the reputation and integrity of the auction house.

There are good guys and bad guys in the auction world, just like new car dealers or anything else.

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1170309071/Barrett+Jackson+brouhaha-




I recieved this...

" Barrett Jackson fraud claimed


>This was forwarded to me by a buddy in the business. Not sure of the
>validity, but it definitely makes you wonder....
>
> January 27th, 2007 by fourwheeldrift
>As a collector car journalist, I have been watching the Barrett-Jackson
>auction for years. For the last five or so years, it has been very
>apparent that the Scottsdale auction is at best a bastion of greed and
>manipulation...and at worse, all-out fraud.
>
>I've discussed B-J with collectors, dealers and enthusiasts, many of
>whom would be considered "insiders," meaning they've bought and sold
>cars at B-J and other auctions, or are well-known in the collector car
>hobby. For some reason, it is this year that people are all finally
>grumbling and passing rumors in unison.
>
>The bottom line is that Craig Jackson and the B-J company have really
>screwed themselves this year. Their contracts specifically promise
>every car three minutes on the stand. Due to ego and greed, they
>expanded the Scottsdale '07 auction to the point they could not provide
>this, plus they had the audacity to do it on live television.
>
>A well-known former head judge in the Ford Thunderbird circles was one
>of the sellers who had his car short-timed. He has already filed a law
>suit against B-J, and this is already headed towards class-action status.
>According to this judge and other sources, it appears Barrett-Jackson
>was operating a bit on the same level as an evangelical healing show.
>They had assistants milling around asking what specific sellers thought
>their cars would bring. Armed with this information at the control
>desk, if a lot passed the value at which a seller indicated he'd be
>happy, the car would be rushed off and the gavel would fall - even if
>bidding was still very much alive.
>
>Because the event was televised on live television via the Speed TV
>network, the plaintiff(s) now have video/audio proof that buyers were
>signaling increased bids before the three-minute marks, but were denied
>by a too-fast last call and hammer.
>
>While this all might cause Barrett-Jackson to have to pay money to
>sellers in the form of a judgment or settlement, it is something else
>that might land Craig Jackson in jail.
>
>It is no secret that Barrett-Jackson owns many cars that are run
>through the auction - it was something I suspected many, many years
>ago. This was proven when they started maintaining a showroom of cars in
Arizona .
>This is not illegal, but stay with me.
>
>I've always suspected that the cars owned by Craig Jackson and the B-J
>company were often driven up by shill bidders working for the company.
>Essentially, the strategy works in the sense that ever since the
>auction focus moved from classics like Packards and Duesenbergs to
>muscle cars, B-J has been able to shill, say a Hemi Cuda or mid-year
>Corvette 427 they own, which causes the value of the 10 other identical
>cars to increase. They wind up "buying" their own car back, but the
>others go on to regular buyers, who now are paying higher because of
>the perception the market has moved up.
>
>This suspicion has been validated by auction attendees this year that
>witnessed cars sold at auction headed in trailers back to B-J's
>warehouse. The lawsuit allegedly points out that these cars also spent
>significantly more time on the block than others.
>
>If this isn't all interesting enough, during this year's auction,
>fellow collector car journalist, Keith Martin of Sports Car Market, was
>booted from the Westworld premises and his media credentials revoked
>for voicing loud, specific concern regarding the event while sitting in
>the media room. Barrett-Jackson accused Keith Martin of "holding court"
>and attempting to send VIPs and journalists to the competing RM and
>Russo and Steele auction events. Among the alleged opinions included
>that the cars at B-J were of inferior quality (and had quality
>misrepresented,) as well as that the bidders were significantly
>over-bidding cars, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has
>witnessed people paying six figures for cars they could have bought for
>under $50,000 any other day of the year!!!
>This is somewhat of an interesting twist. Keith Martin's publication
>has marketed the B-J events and has helped fuel its popularity. Keith
>is definitely one of the great "insiders" of the hobby, and has been a
>friend to Craig Jackson. In past years, Keith nor his publication have
>been critical of the goings-on and rumors, while other collector car
>journalists have been outwardly screaming that something stunk.
>
>It makes sense, since Sports Car Market really only tracks the value of
>vehicles and other items sold at auction, rather than via private sales
>(which really has skewed SCM's values for years!) So without
>kissing-ass to B-J, Keith would have missed insider info on the largest
>events covered by his mag. So we can only guess that Keith and Craig
>had a falling out of some type.
>
>I applaud Keith for turning the corner on his view of B-J, but I'm with
>others I've talked to about this: I hate to say this about a colleague,
>but I felt his behavior was a bit unprofessional. As journalists, it is
>our responsibility to write what we think, but going to the show for
>years, then promoting RM and Russo+Steele while at Westworld is
>somewhat unprofessional. I agree that Keith, a true hobbyist who
>started out by writing an Alfa Romeo newsletter, was for a long time
>too much a part of the "circus" about which he finally rejected, and
>that SCM has to a significant degree helped to fuel misinformation and
>a house of cards regarding specific auction prices and bidding
>behavior. Keith, by all accounts, is a really good guy -- an
>enthusiast, who maybe just needed to take a step back and a big breath
>and reacquaint himself with those outside of the very insulated
>collector car "in crowd" -- and spend time with some car people who are
>not trying to exploit the collectors. There are plenty of guys who have
>dug themselves too deep into this little crowd, and are no longer fun
>to deal with, because they've put personal greed well ahead of the cars
>and the collectors. Keith will rebound -- he has a great internal staff
>of really fantastic people, who hopefully will help him return to his
roots.
>
>That being said... While I've never met him, the buzz among those in
>the hobby -- both collectors and journalists, is that Craig Jackson is
>quite arrogant, so don't expect many to come to his rescue. He
>inherited his father's company, and has fueled B-J's growth with a
>combination of intelligence, drive, ego, and greed. While there is
>nothing wrong with that combination, when it results in unethical and
>possibly illegal activities, that's inexcusable.
>
>Like many surrounding the hobby, I will be watching the events unfold.
>Will the Westworld tents come down like a house of cards, or will
>everything just go away with an exchange of a little money? It's hard
>to predict. Craig Jackson has become a very powerful man, and his
>company has pumped billions of dollars into the Arizona economy over the
years.
>This all being said, there's no doubt that Barrett-Jackson "jumped the
>shark" this year. Unlike when Fonzi did it, Craig Jackson drove his
>allegedly shill-bid Hemicudas over the tank and down a ramp that could
>lead to six years in a minimum security prison-issued orange jumpsuit.
>If that's the case, maybe he can get Sports Car Market in the slammer
>to keep-up on Russo and Steele, RM and Kruse auction results. "



So do you think he'll be stamping collector car license plates in the future?

 

Hes so rich I think he will get off with it.

 

If it's true, and there is a class action lawsuit, there will be no shortage of happy buyers and sellers signing up.

 

Something had to be up with these high prices on cars. It makes a good story that BJ is running up bids and selling their own stock. I think just about everyone gets screwed there if not only what they pay for the cars , then the $500 to bid, then the 10% tacked on for the buyer. It's a good time and you do get to be on TV. What's an extra 50k/car among friends. BJ makes a killing on these auctions.

 

Not a fan of the man, but certainly enjoy the cars and all the electricity of the event. I'd hate to see him do time, but perhaps he can turn around and run a more respectable venue.

 

The whole freakin thing comes down to..... how much is enough?

If all this "shill/etc" BS is true, I would ask why?

You've (B-J) has built an event that people plan their vacation time around and you still have to have more.

Greed, like speed kills

 

We need to come back to the point, when you are a guest on a auction, you should respect the house. Martin have a long story by acting like a outlaw.
The auction company was right to threw him away, and it should happen a long time ago.

 

Racingracing,

Interesting first post.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I have no problem with that view. Martin shouldn't have been bad-mouthing the auction on their own grounds.

That being said, Martin may be correct in the flaws that he notes (he simply chose the wrong place/time to air them).

 

Amen!

Martin and Craig Jackson are just money-grubbing gas bags. The story I heard was that Martin was fired when his magazine stated the muscle car market was burning out. (And it is.) The Barrett-Jackson auction used to have beautiful '30s cruisers, European GTs, and race-winning cars; now, the auction just has the typical range of Sting Rays, Chargers, GT500s, and 'Cudas. I love muscle cars, but have some variety.

Martin embodies what I don't like: he looks at collecting as a business; a true car lover looks at it as a labor of love to restore and drive a classic. Both Jackson and Martin are not to be praised; but I'll take Martin over Jackson like I'd trake Trump over Rosie. There are only losers in this battle.