Drag racing question ... and yes F1 has not started yet

I was having a rest on Saturday so flicked the TV on and the only motor sport related thing that was on was drag racing.

They filmed a top fuel dragster launching from behind the start line and because of the torque action the car skewed off the line. Surely this must cost some time!.

Why don't they turn the engine 90 degrees and get rid of the diff and run drop gears to the rear axle, like a motorcycle (minus the chain)?.

They could use the torque rotation to increase traction, etc. ... no more skew.

Seems like a technology improvement to me, waiting for somebody who can think out of the square ...
Pete

 

No comments ...

Oh well was hoping to have a tech chat ...
Pete

 

Don Gartlis tried it in Top Fuel back in the 80s, see http://www.northernthunder.com/sidewinder.html

It was done in other classes long before then. See pic attached from 1960

The biggest problem is that there's not a good system to get the power down. Chains or belts won't hold today's mega-horsepower motors, and gearsets don't seem to last under the load. In addition, the competitors have gotten very good at controlling the wheelspin by using progressive clutch slipping and a high-gear only transmission. I'm not sure how you could accomplish that with a sidewinder setup
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...And let us not here forget the 246, 3X8s and Miura.

Ring and pinion rear end still, no? ...That strikes me as much weaker link than any in a planar gearset.

A clutch is a clutch, doesn't care whether it's facing N-S or E-W.

It would torque the front wheels down, is that undesirable from a weight transfer perspective (obviously, with reversed crank rotation it would spin the thing back onto its 'roof')? ...An effect worse than time lost torquing off center?

This is a great question: Why don't they do this? Have there been any recent attempts or research? Is there some idiotic (like F-1's 'V-8 only', or all of NASCAR) prophylactic rule?

 

Yes I cannot see why they could not create drop-gears, etc. to transmitt the power/torque. After all a diff is just a couple of intersecting gears. Ofcourse they are a strong type of design due to the long tooth face, etc. ... but still the concept does 'on paper' seem to have merit, ie. why have to turn the torque direction?

Pete
ps: Might see if I can find some rules ...

 

How about here: www.nhra.com

Carol

 

I don't think any rules prevent it and from seeing sidewinder installs in cars at Bonneville for packaging reasons I doubt strength of power transmission is a problem either. I suspect it has more to do with the packaging requirements of a top fuel dragster. I also think if a car was torquing to the side so much as to be a problem it was probably an indication the clutch set up was off. It is a very fine line and track conditions from run to run make the clutch set up change from pass to pass.


Most combinations have been tried over and over through the years and as simple as it looks those guys are a pretty smart bunch to make them go as fast as they do.

 

This is just speculation, although mixed with years of tech-talk with the serious drag guys at the track every week, but, I think rotation is the issue.

Engine goes one way, the whole car rotates forward, putting the front wheels down but lifting UP the back wheels. Very bad situation.

The other way, the car could probably not keep the front end down. They are already very long and with wheelie bars sometimes and they still lift up a fair bit - the situation would be even worse with the engine trying to turn it back too.

Don't forget that a drag car is purposely light. Most of the mass is in the parts that count - driveline and engine. You would have a gigantic amount of rotating mass and the inertia of it would produce a LOT of forces going in directions that you don't want.

At least thats why I think. The tech surely is there to do it, if they wanted to.

 

Nothing changes here, but it would have to rotate the other way, ie. try and lift the front. This is exactly what happens now, and one of the reasons why the cars are so long. Note how they lift the right front wheel but not the left ... because of the torque twist. Rotating the engine 90 degrees would remove this.

There is no difference. The current situation thanks to the diff. is trying to rotate around the crownwheel also.

Why don't they flip? I guess this is due to traction and clutch slip, but I have seen funny cars and other classes lift right up and really use their wheelie bars.

Yes if you designed it to push the front down.

The current issue (when using a diff.) is that one driving wheel is being pushed into the ground and the other lifted, thus you have uneven traction. Heck we all experience that even on our road/race cars. Turning the engine 90 degrees would enable 100% even traction on both driving wheels, surely an advantage in a sport that launching is close to everything .

As always I imagine that clutch design and slip would be critical.

Anyway ... just a thought.
Pete

 

The exhaust would be a large issue to deal with if trying to package transverse. The exhaust produces something like 1000lbs of downforce at WOT. The pipes are pointed up, while being canted backwards. ie, the exhaust pushes the car down and forward in a typical longitudinal setup. To package a transverse engine the same way would be impossible.

 

Hi Pete. I'm late to the thread, but I'd love to get into a good discussion about this. My first question would be- are you sure it was a Top Fuel Dragster? Many people refer to any fast drag car as a Top Fueler.

If it was a T/F, an uneven launch was a sign of some kind of trouble. They don't normally take off sideways.

I don't race, but I used to live and breathe for T/F. From what I read and from talking to crew members, no one wants to try anything as radical as turning the engine 90 degrees. It's unproven, and no one wants to spend an entire season or more breaking parts and trying to make it work. Rifledriver also makes a good point about packaging. No one wants to make a make a transverse engine as aerodynamic as a longitudinal one. There aren't really any revolutionary changes made in T/F. A new intake scoop here, a bigger fuel pump there...change happens slowly.

If you've never seen it up close and in person, you really should. Watching it on TV is nothing like the real deal. Words can't describe what it's like to see...and feel...one of these beasts fire up and make a pass. Going to the races is like a religious experience for me. I'm just in awe of the power they make...and the fact that they can use it. I mean...8300hp. Tires that can withstand that kind of abuse. If you get the program "Modern Marvels" in Australia, watch the episode about drag racing. They show a simulation of one cylinder in a T/F engine. It has so much fuel going in, it looks like a fire hose spraying down a plexiglass tube. If they lose spark, the engine blows. They have so much fuel in that dead cylinder...and it's gotta go somewhere. Liquids don't compress, so, instant bomb.

It's insane. You just have to see it to believe it.

 

Positive. While I am no drag expert I know what a Top Fuel Dragster is ... or atleast I think so . I sure the commentators do though ...

It only moved about 2 feet sideways if that, and yes I guess something was not setup right but it got me thinking. The way things are currently designed there is always uneven forces on those important traction wheels.

Yes I can understand that, and to different degrees that happens in all professional motorsports. Club stuff is often where the clever stuff starts ... well used to.

I've seen a demonstration at my ex-local racing circuit of a funny car (I think) at it was mighty impressive.
Pete

 

Jack Christman (sp ?) made a sidewinder funny car in the 70's. His problem was... Too much traction/torque force. The 2 ply tires would flatten out so he had 4 ply tires. Where he got them I dont know. He used an Olds Toronado tranny setup which I believe used a metal belt.
Drag racing progress moves so slowly.
Funny cars should use the Brabham F1 sucker car concept.
Blowers eat 1/3 the horsepower generated. Turbos would be perfect here thus they are probably outlawed.
How bout a REAL aero package on a Topfuel car ?
It is a spectacle but not "real" racing IMO. More like; who has a better controlled crash.

 

I love watching the nitro cars live.

I read somewhere that the soundwave generated by the launch of two Top Fuelers side-by-side registers 2.3 on the Richter scale. I believe it.

Awesome is insufficient to describe the experience.