MASSAPPEAL - An Article By Peter Windsor | FerrariChat

MASSAPPEAL - An Article By Peter Windsor

Discussion in 'F1' started by RP, Mar 20, 2007.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def
    #1 RP, Mar 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have reading all the BS some of you have been throwing out attempting to put Phil Massa in a secondary role as an F1 driver. I really doubt that anyone that is making such comments knows anybody that is actually in the paddock or the pits of F1 testing and on race day. I have had contacts in the sport for many years, so I do hear many of the stories first hand. I do not make up what I say, only pass on what is common knowledge in F1 garages. From the comments I read, most of you really do not know much about Michael Schumacher, and for sure his relationship with Massa. To know Massa, is to know his potential. Schumacher was more than the #1 Ferrari driver, he stayed late and helped work on the cars, he knew the names of all the personnel, spoke to them in Italian, he worked to develop Massa, he would make appearances and talk one on one with the factory workers. Above all he was generous.

    Needless to say, unless you are one of the lucky ones that really is constantly in the garages of the F1 teams, you really do not have the slightest idea of what you are spewing forth. Massa did an excellent job in Melbourne. I can not imagine anyone stating otherwise. When Schumacher did the same in the last few years, that is come from dead last to the points, many of you would have had him replace the Pope. I have been criticised for stating that at the moment Massa is better liked by the ITALIAN team than Kimi, and that will be an advantage to Massa. But, this is the story that I get from Italy, and I do belive it to be true. He is liked because he is a winner, who can communicate with the Italians in a manner they appreciate.

    Nevertheless, it appears that Peter Windsor would agree with most of the reasons I have given as to why I believe in Felipe Massa in 2007. Not to lessen the importance of Kimi Raikkonen, but to elevate the importance of Felipe Massa.

    In the February 2007 of F1 Racing magazine, Windsor, who I had the pleasure of meeting while at the USGP last year, has an interesting article in this issue called "Massappeal" that pretty much supports my comments about Phil Massa over the last few weeks. I do not have the patience to post the entire article word for word, but I will give you some excerpts, none taken out of context so as to change Windsor's meaning. I suggest yo go to you local Border's or Barnes & Noble and buy a copy.

    In the meantime, here are some of Peter Windsor's comments:

    "(Felipe) is strong - very strong. He is self-disciplined, spiritually robust, self-contained, extremely organized, close to his family and accurately self-critical. Everything about him is neat and tidy. He dresses down, not up. He has learnt from the Todts and has learnt from Michael Schumacher."

    Since the end of the 2005 season, "He began to free-up some mental space for thought and thus rely less upon reflexes and bravery."

    "There are other reasons why things sould sweep along quite nicely for the man that won twice with MS as his teammate:

    1) (Phil) speaks perfect English AND Italian - Ferrari's two main languages. Kimi speaks no Italian and isn't very comfortable with English. (my comment, Michael learned Italian for a reason)

    2) Massa knows the Ferrari system: he knows the mechanics. Their families. The logistics. The things worth spending time on the things that aren't; Kimi knows the McLaren way...a more clinical environment. (my comment, if you know Ferrari, you would know how critical this is to success with the team - MS knew the janitors by first name - autographed every sewing machine in the leather department)

    3) Felipe has also learnt Michaels management system - how to train and how to think about the race ahead: and how to work with the people around you. Kimi, by contrast learns from no one, he is self-made, self taught. (my comments Ferrari meetings are held mostly in Italian - Kimi sits and leaves as soon as they are over)

    4) If Michael wants any Ferrari driver to win in 2007 it will be Massa. Felipe is a sort of protege; Kimi is the guy that has taken Michael's place. (my comment, all of last year it was well known in the garage that MS spent a lot of time working with Felipe, took him under his wing, acted as teacher)

    5) Felipe knows the full spread of the Bridgestones - right back to 2005 (probable race structure for 2007); Kimi does not.

    6) Ferrari is very different in 2007. No Brawn. No Michael. Felipe nonetheless has a feel for how Ross thought and worked; ditto for Michael - so he can use that experience to advantage.

    7) Felipe has won two races, and thus has 'his team' within the Ferrari team. People believe in him. People like him. And quite a few Ferrari people want him to win. (my comment, if you know Ferrari and the Italian way, this is very important - Michael knew this and used it to his advantage)

    8) Through hard work, self-criticism, and maximizing his place in the ultimate F1 classroom, that is being with Michael, Felipe improved more as a driver during 2005 and 2006 than probably anyone else on the grid.

    9) Prediction: Felipe will score more points than Kimi in 2007 but out-qualify him only about 45% of the time. Felipe can therefore win the WDC....

    10)It won't be easy, and he needs to continue to improve, but, by this time next year, Phil Massa can be world champion."

    Windsor states that much can happen, that Massa could wake up a different person and all of this gets negated. He could run into mechanical problems beyond his control. He states that at the moment Kimi is a faster driver, but the fact is that along with Peter Windsor, much of the F1 paddock knows that Phil Massa has the same chance of winning the 2007 WDC as his teammate, maybe better.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2004
    13,127
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Peter den Biggelaar
    Good post. Forza Ferrari and Forza Massa!

    Edit: and Forza Kimi too! :)
     
  3. red355

    red355 Formula Junior

    Jan 30, 2007
    296
    Pa
    Since Michael left I don't care who wins as long as its a Ferrari driver.
     
  4. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def
    Yes, 100% agree.
     
  5. TOOLFAN

    TOOLFAN F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 23, 2005
    2,807
    California
    Agree 100% with you Ron, great post.

    Massa 07!
     
  6. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def
    Thanks, but all I am doing is passing on the info I get from friends. From that I came to the conclusion that I underestimated Massa. Now I know that he can win the WDC.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Yes that's another more informed opinion, but it is still an opinion.

    Problem is if Kimi out qualifies Massa and is simply faster ... how the heck is Massa going to score more points coming in 2nd?. Massa is never going to pass Kimi on the track, never.

    Also Luca hired Kimi, last I heard Luca runs Ferrari, and Luca has been very, very specific in that Kimi was hired to win the 2007 WDC!
    Pete
     
  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    49,612
    @ the wheel
    Full Name:
    Andreas
    Amazing that Windsor would write such nonsense. I lost all respect for the man.

    The quotes Prova85 posted from Matchett point IMHO a much more realistic picture: The Scuderia is changing from the MS family style to the icy racing team. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143413&page=2 Post#16

    Frankly I care a lot more about Matchett. BTW: Did I mention, that Matchett wrote one of the best books about F1?

    We should send Windsor an email at Speed TV at the end of the season with his article and the final points standings attached.
     
  9. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

    Nov 11, 2003
    13,189
    Orange County
    Full Name:
    Anthony T
    I used to like Peter Windsor quite a bit when he wrote for Autoweek and was good friends with Gilles V. He was also at one time a team manager with Williams. However, just as stated above, this his opinion, he also thought that with the one tire rule in 2005 that Ferrari would dominate with Bridgestone. Lets see how the season plays out, as Ron has said fairly, lets wait for a mid season report card.
     
  10. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

    Mar 16, 2002
    13,337
    Ex-Urbia
    Full Name:
    Jack
    Well, that's great that Windsor has such great things to say about Massa. I think #2 is the type of quality that can exemplify success in any discipline. Personally, as far as Massa's concerned I'm sort of neutral to slightly for him. Not against Kimi--I like him too. Massa just doesn't create any sparks for me. Quite a long time ago there was a "discussion" on this board that basically boiled down to someone's opinion of how, since we're all outsiders, we don't know anything about F1 and shouldn't cast opinions. While it's true none of us know the true men inside the helmets--few people ever do, including your contacts--in some ways it's easier to judge objectively by not allowing personal sentiments to cloud our opinions. Sometimes those on the inside can be equally biased because of their close proximity to the subject at hand.

    That said, it sounds to me like Massa definitely possesses the personal traits to make a winning, even possibly Champion, racer. But as far as judging talent, I go by what happens on the track. He's already a multiple race-winner, driving for a top team. Let's run the races and see what plays out.
     
  11. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,320
    UK
    ....and Kimi will do Massa's head in and then blow his doors off - simply because he has total self belief and, ultimately, is faster. It became pretty obvious last weekend that he's been sand-bagging all winter. Some of the looks on Massa's face during the weekend spoke volumes.

    We shall find out for sure over the next 5 or 6 races.

    I.
     
  12. YellowbirdRS

    YellowbirdRS Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2005
    1,765
    DFW/RGV/MX
    Full Name:
    Xavier

    well said!
    No because Kimi won the 1st. race doesn't means he will win the WDC.


    Forza Ferrari !
    Forza Massa !

    Felipe Massa WDC 2007
     
  13. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def

    Not nonsense Andreas. Its the truth and just supports what I have been hearing others saying all along. Its how many people within the sport see it. I am not sure why you and others on FChat pretend to know more. Everything he said is quite logical, no one here has said anything that would prove him wrong.

    Can anyone substantiate that Ferrari is changing to an icy racing team? To date, everything I have heard is 180 degrees opposite. The only member of the team that is considered "icy" is Luca. As long as there are Italians on the Italian team, passion and emotion will continue. That is why Ferrari is a winner.

    Frankly, Windsor has more credibility than anyone on this forum, I would certainly be inclined to believe him, especially since he is welcomed in the Ferrari garage.

    Possibly you will get the same e-mail with the points standings at the end of the season?
     
  14. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def

    I believe you were in the pits in Melbourne, right?
     
  15. djui5

    djui5 F1 Veteran

    Aug 9, 2006
    5,418
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Nice article
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    That quote says it all ... when people talk about Kimi, they use the word will.

    Even Winsor doubts Massa's speed.
    Pete
     
  17. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jul 3, 2006
    27,855
    Aspen CO 81611
    Full Name:
    FelipeNotMassa
    Windsor admits that Kimi is faster now. So he will get faster than Kimi because the Italians like him better? Let's hope he gets faster for whatever reason...and fast.
     
  18. teak360

    teak360 F1 World Champ

    Nov 3, 2003
    10,065
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Massa's being close to his family and dressing down, not up has way less relevance to winning races than calling yourself James Hunt and blowing away the field in a snowmobile race. Overall this is an article that really says nothing compelling. For example:

    1. Massa "knows" the Bridgestones.....well, it looks like Kimi knows them just as well already.
    2. Massa has experience with the team and has won two races.... Kimi has a better win ratio in Ferrari's than any driver in the history of Ferrari. In fact, he has won every race he has been in as a Ferrari driver!!

    You get my point, things can be said that really don't mean a lot.



    Once again my predictions for 2007:
    1. Kimi will outqualify Massa
    2. Kimi will finish ahead of Massa in points
    3. Kimi will be more fun to watch than Massa
     
  19. DGS

    DGS Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    71,839
    MidTN
    Full Name:
    DGS
    Apparently, the fans get personal sentiments too: there are times when the discussions here sound more like a group of rugby fans than F1 analysts. ;)

    But then, I've liked Massa since he was the "wild child" at Sauber.

    When I first heard about Kimi going to Ferrari, my thought was that he'd be faster than Massa -- right up until his car broke under him.

    Lack of involvement with the engineering, language issues with the team staff, etc., could still give Kimi issues.

    But from this first race, it appears that Kimi may have made progress in getting a feel for the machine, while staying fast.

    Time will tell if Massa will continue to improve without Shumacher's guidance.

    I think Ferrari has a good pair of drivers. If they can keep their gearbox running, they've got a good shot at the make's championship. That's not the one that gets the parades, but that's the one I care about.

    But Alonso and Hamilton are also likely to be stiff competition. I think the manufacturer's title will be decided by reliability.

    As for WDC: If we knew the results, it wouldn't be as fun to watch. :p
     
  20. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
    23,476
    KL, Malaysia
    Full Name:
    MC Cool Breeze
    +1

    we need more time..
     
  21. Senna3xWC

    Senna3xWC F1 Rookie

    Nov 30, 2006
    3,152
    NYC
    I have very distinct memories of the political mess that was Ferrari before Todt took over the team, when the team was run by Italian "passion". Infighting, bickering, lack of focus, etc.

    Italian passion and emotion are the reason that Italy has had 60 different governments in the last 50 years. Ferrari succeeded because those at the top in the past 10 years were NOT Italian.
     
  22. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    49,612
    @ the wheel
    Full Name:
    Andreas
    +1

    The brilliant Montezemolo being the laudable exception to this.

    In the years before Todt took over Maranello was referred to in the press as "the house of a 1,000 lies". Remember when they made up excuses to Enzo for why the cars broke down, again.
     
  23. sailquik

    sailquik Formula 3

    Feb 27, 2006
    1,645
    In a temperate zone
    Full Name:
    Charlie
    The fun thing about these early season opinions is that anything goes...any opinion is valid simply because there is not enough data to point to the facts yet. At this point in time you could make an argument for anything.

    But, how accurate were your predictions in the one race that has actually been run?
    1) Yes, but only because of problems unrelated to Massa's driving (I doubt going over the curb caused the tranny failure, Hamilton did it twice in the "less reliable" McLaren and he finished his race)
    2) True
    3) False. Massa was more fun to watch.

    FWIW, you're 2 for 3.

    Except for #3, I think you are right in your predictions, but I still hope Massa comes out ahead. He seems (from admittedly unreliable press accounts) to be an all around nicer, harder working guy.
     
  24. Senna3xWC

    Senna3xWC F1 Rookie

    Nov 30, 2006
    3,152
    NYC
    You make comments like this and then you have the gall to call others "arrogant".

    Lewis Hamilton's dad is a personal acquaintance of mine. My firm used him as an IT consultant in our London office up to a year ago. Does that make me an F1 insider??

    What you pass as "inside information" sounds an awful lot like just another person's opinion to the rest of us.


    Coming from a guy that thinks Danica Patrick is a race driver... :rolleyes:

    If you think lapping two seconds slower than your teammate is an excellent job, then there is nothing more I can say that will educate you.


    In other posts, you castigated other contributors for citing journalists, Autosport, and F1 magazine as sources. Suddenly you find those sources to be relevant?

    If all you have to hang your hat on is the word of Peter Windsor, then you have already lost the argument.


    Great, he has learned from Todt and Schumacher. He dresses casually. He is nice to his parents.

    How does any of this translate to speed on the race track?!?

    This quote is completely irrelevant.


    To paraphrase you, Ron, since when has Windsor become Massa's personaly psychologist? Can he read Massa's thoughts? Does Massa communicate to him telepathically?

    This is one man's opinion, and once again says nothing about his speed on the race track.

    He was well behind MS on the race track and he is well behind Kimi on the race track. Nothing said here changes the fact that he has been soundly thrashed by every teammate he has ever had.

    Michale learnt Italian because Rubens, who was already fluent, was joining the team and MS did not want to give away an advantage. Not speaking Italian was no obstacle for MS during the Irvine years and there is no reason to believe Kimi wouldn't learn Italian if he so chose nor is there any reason to believe that Kimi will be hampered. After all, barely speaking English was apparently no handicap to him on joining McLaren.


    Yes, this clearly handicapped Kimi in Australia... :rolleyes:

    Every top driver has his own way of doing things. Kimi is as fast as any driver in F1, including Shumacher, doing things his own way. What worked for MS does not necessarily work for Kimi, Alonso, Senna, Prost or any other top driver, it merely worked for MS.


    Unless Michael is wrenching for Kimi, I fail to see the relevance in this comment.


    Of course. Had Massa not had this first hand knowledge of the Bridgestones, he might have been 3 or 4 seconds a lap slower than Kimi, instead of only 2.


    That's one way to look at it.

    Alternatively one can say that Ferrari is more of a blank slate, which works to Kimi's advantage.


    Great. People like him. When good wishes translates into raw speed on the race track, then call me. Until then, file this under "irrelevant"

    Great. he went from crash-prone backmarker to crash-prone midpack runner.

    He is still nowhere near the top of the grid. He can improve all he wants, he will never be another Kimi, Alonso, or MS. He is not even a JPM or Button.


    Prediction: this will go by the wayside as have most of Windsor's pre-season predictions. This is a joke.


    By this time next year, I may have won Mega Bucks too. Just don't bet on it.


    Have you polled the entire paddock? How is this a fact? It certainly appears from all the interviews I have read that the only one who believes this, other than Massa, is you.

    This article is a joke. This is the justification for your arguments? This is the supportive evidence you have?

    All I have read is that Massa is a nice guy, who calls his mom on weekends, and has improved himself in the process. Nothing here in any way changes or refutes anyone's argument that Massa is, and always will be, nothing more than a #2 driver.

    I have yet to see anything in print or on track that has refuted the fact that Massa has been unable to beat any teammate, ANY teammate, in F1 ever, let alone pace the entire grid.

    This article of yours says absolutely nothing to change this fact.
     
  25. YellowbirdRS

    YellowbirdRS Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2005
    1,765
    DFW/RGV/MX
    Full Name:
    Xavier
    No, no Melburne. I expect to be at the Ferrari pits in Montreal next June.
     

Share This Page