So, have prices of older ferraris really gone up?

Whenever I read these boards, I see discussion that the prices of certain ferraris are climbing. Specifically dinos, boxers, and older cars. But, when you do a financial analysis, has the price really moved much?

Seems like 10 years ago, you could get dino's for $40,000 or so. Now, nice ones are $150,000-ish. Sounds great, right? Except everyone I have talked to that has a nice dino probably spent $100,000 restoring it. So, did the price really go up? Or is it more of a "feel good number"?

I have also seen some nice boxers. 5 years ago, $65,000 cars. Now, about $100,000. Talk to the owners though, and they have $30,000+ in bills to rennovate it. Again, did the car really go up in value, or do the costs just reflect the work and money spent???

Seems like those folks who made out well, were those who bought a decent car, put little to no money into it, and still got a decent gain.

I am noticing the trend in 308's now too. Nicers ones asking in the high 30's. BUT, the owner just put $10-15,000 into it.

So, when does the appreciation phase start were the rise outstrips rennovation costs?

I am just throwing this out ofr thought, comments appreciated!

 

When you buy a truly rare Ferrari, not a mass produced unit (over 100 examples). Ferrari's are basially dropping in value if one factors in TCO and the PVOM (total cost of ownership and present value of money).

 

You hit it on the head, to keep a Dino together all this time you'd have spent the money!

My 308GTBs are pretty much the same...to keep them tuned painted and running pretty much offsets any gain....

Except the smiles.......

 

Not all Ferrari's appreciates. Only the one's that have limited amount of car produced like Steve said.

Enzo's are now appreciating especially now that they're getting fewer. Since they are rare, lots of people would want them so they're gonna bid a higher price in order to own the car. At least that's my view on a car's appreciation.

 

This is not just a FErrari issue whether its Vettes or exotics people have the cars because they want then and maintain and upgrade them because they are into cars. If you are into Net Return On Capital employed you should not be looking to buying a car of any kind its either necessary transportation or its a toy either way not a great investment item
Martin

 

Dunno about that. I can only speak for the Dinos I know, owned by freinds here on Fchat, and by others near me.

They have certainly appreciated. Let's do the numbers. Let's stick to GT's.

Basket case (but repairable) - 4 years ago $30K, now $60K (if you can find one.)
Driver - 4 years ago $60K now $90K
95 point concours - 4 years ago $80K now $120K
98 point car - 4 yrs ago 100K now $140-150K.

Add or subtract some percentage points for cars of particular interest, or of particular disrepair.

The 4 years ago pricing may be a little generous, the "now" prices are not.

So yes, I think these cars have appreciated.

Even if i look at all of the costs associated with getting my car to 95-97 points, i'd say I'm $30K+ to the good. That's with all the maintanace and repairs and a very expensive paint job tossed in.

Did I steal my Dino 4 years ago, making my get in cost cheap? Nope, bought it from a dealer. Do you think THEY would have let me steal the car???

Are Dinos maintance pigs? I don't think so. I put about 3k miles a year on the car, and routine maintanace costs are certainly well under $1.00 per mile.

Fixin' 'em can be mighty expensive. Bad motor can cost $20K, gearbox $10K, interior $10K, and paint $10-25K. Brakes, suspension, all are expensive to replace, but parts are available and careful shopping can save many thousands of dollars.

DM

 

Of course they've gone up. Just try to find a $35k Dino today. But then many of us remember when the price of a gallon of gas or milk for that matter was alot less also.

TCO and PVOM aside.

Is this a repost? I suspect it could, and has been said more than once.

 

I work as a real estate investor/developer and have always said that the most exclusive real estate only becomes more exclusive. It does not matter how many more condos are built. The same can be said of Ferraris and that is why that sector is blue chip. That is to say they are always top performers. Others will be different of course. The blue chips however will remain blue.

I wold love to hear an argument on how they outperform other markets. I'm just looking for more rationalizations.

 

Reading through Forza a couple months ago shows that they have been appreciating, even in a span of only five years or so

 

Hey Dave,
Can these (or others for that matter ) really cost, well, $25000 just to paint?? I mean, sure, you want a 1st class job, but 25,000? whooooooooah!! Where are some of us guys getting cost estimates for 5-6000? What am I missing? Pls explain.
Joe

 

Exactly....you keep them up, because you are a good steward, AND you get to enjoy at the same time. Thats the idea, right? You let stuff go, and we know what happens in short time.

 

Take one reasonable badly maintained Dino, mix 30 years of water and road salt, shake lightly.

Now, strip off the old paint because of course someone else has painted it before you did (probably resale red), and carefully hid all the problems the car has.

Remove the windshield and back window, take off all the trim, remove all the glass, strip the car till it's bare ass naked.

Spend a few dozen hours (probably more) fixing all the rust on the car. Cut out the bad metal, weld in new pieces, have it done right so the welds can be ground to avoid a lot of filler work. Check the frame while you're there, replace any bad bits of tubing, replace the rockers (they're bound to be rusty) and the inner wheel arches. NOW, we're ready to paint.

Respray the car with a light epoxy filler (Panels are hand beat, have to refill and hand sand each panel to make them look right), don't forget to put the car together to make sure the panels all look right. Now take the doors back off along with the hoods, so you can finish paint them.

Paint 3, 4, 6 coats (Not sure) of base, then shoot with clear. Hand sand again to make sure there's no orange peel. All finished? Not quite.

Buy new rubber seals for the car. Doors, windows, etc. (that's gonna run close to $1000 by itself), put em on, spend a bunch of time remounting the windshield and rear window, and be CAREFUL that back window is hard to put in, and VERY expensive to replace.

Ok, all done, right? Nope. All the electrical grounds need to be carefully cleaned where they attach to the body, bound to be some paint on there from the re-spray.

All done? Nope. Running lights, side markers, lots of Dino badges and that pesky pininfarina badge should probably be replaced. After all the paint's new, why have shabby trim?

NOW?? Nope, check the chrome. Some of that's gonna need refreshing to look right.

Finished? Nah, paint the wheels. They look terrible next to the new paint job.

Now are we done?? Pretty much. Odds and ends need to be addressed, but you're pretty much finished. Materials ain't cheap, but the LABOR is brutal, and as you can see, there's lots of it. At $65-70 and hour, it adds up fast.

That's how you get a $25K paint job. But, when you're done, if it's right, you've got a concours winner car.

Tape it off and spray it? Sure $5-6K. Really re-paint it? $6K will cover prep and disassembly.

Dave M.

 

Dave's post explained it best, but I've seen guys spend several thousand just to properly refinish/respray a 360 front valance from road rash. And that's a modern, machine-made car.

So when someone talks about $5K to respray a 308, you can make some assumptions about what's being done.

 

As posted, the time value of money obliterates the profit that maintenance hasn't already consumed.

If a 328 GTS with essentially zero miles on it (like the black/black one with ~300 miles that sold last year) can fetch $80K+, it's moved backward from it's sticker of $75K in 1989 dollars. You would have done better putting the money in U.S. savings bonds, or in the Posturepedic Savings & Loan.

I think all of these cars are getting rarer - not so much the Boxers and Dinos, which are all being restored or kept by well-heeled owners, but the 308s and Testarossas which are being driven to the scrapyard because they're common. But it's going to take many major service intervals before you can expect to get $70K for your QV.

Bottom line is that if you think of a Ferrari as investment in 2007 you're either delusional or taking a very long term perspective.

 

http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCars.cfm?CarID=r139&SaleCode=GP07

 

From Forza:

250 GT California Spyder
2003: $2,500,000
2006: $5,000,000

250 GT SWB
2003: $2,000,000
2006: $3,500,000

250 GTO
2003: $8,000,000
2006: $14,000,000

Through the years, my dad has owned some Corvettes ('65 and '67 most recently) and he's been told that they appreciate roughly 5-10% a year. That's quite a return if you hold onto one for 10 years.

 

I don't care which model you own, a Ferrari will NEVER be common....

 

True, I just meant relatively...

 

All I know is that the more-upscale, but not-outrageous vintage models available five years ago when I was looking for a 330 2+2 have doubled and tripled in asking price.

Lusso: Routinely $150K< then, $350K to $500K now

Daytona: $90K to $120K then, $200K up now.

275 GTB/4: $250K then, $900K now

330GTC: $65K to $100K then, $180K to $280K now.

"Downscale" 2+2's:

250 GTE: $35K to $65K then, $75K to $130K now

330 America: $40K to $75K then, $100K to $160K now.

Series II 330 2+2: Prime example $55K then, $120K now; knock of 10 or 15 percent for a similar Series I.

Asking price for my Series I 330 was $35K then, I paid $32K. I'm sure both figures would now be double.

 

These are not investments and shouldn't be purchased as such but some of us who didn't buy GTS's have been offered north of $72k for our pristine (but well driven) examples. Of course, we're not selling...

 

The rest of us aren't as smart. Hopefully we'll be able to sell someday though, or maybe give them away.

 

I think that the best case that you can hope for, realistically, is to not have to pay someone to take it off your hands...

 

These discusions seem to come up pretty often amongest car guys about there toy cars. I really do not understand, People buy new cars all the time that usally take greater hits than old cars. After 5 years of minivan ownership your lucky to walk away with only a $10,000 hit, no talk.. People buy a new Ferrari 550 for north of 200k and 5 years later your lucky to get half that, not much talk. but you buy an "old Ferrari " like a Daytona ( They are not worth titleing in GA. motor vehicles eyes) Drive it for 10 years maybe dump 50k to maintain it and we worry about not taking a loss on it??? The market did not go up with my maintence cost??? heavens!!