Maserati Khamsin vs. De Tomaso Pantera

Anyone an expert on both?
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Two totally different cars. One of local Ferrari-Lambo-Maserati shops gets a Khamsin in occasionally and is an expert on all of these older/orphaned Italian cars. As far as I know, he doesn't touch Panteras (basically Ford Cleveland engines, IIRC).

The Khamsin really looks great from that angle. Pretty car.

 

Not an expert, but what do you want to know?

 

Khamsin is gorgeous but if memory serves me it has the hydraulics from Citroen which is not easy to maintain nor find parts for.

 

I know Panteras and they're more than just a Ford 351 V-8. The cars look identical, but I'm drawn to the Khamsin's low volume. The car's an unknown compared to the Ghibli and Indy. Both cars range around $40,000, and may consider a purchase in the future.

 

The Khamsin at least here in europe is currently a real supercar bargain, they just will not get any cheaper and can only appreciate in value as there were only about 430 produced. Its slow sales were no reflection on the car, but rather a factor of economics at the time, high oil prices and citroen were in trouble and about to offload Maserati, which was subsequently bought by De Tomaso!!
There was a good Khamsin sold in the UK last month for 10k Sterling, what a bargain. If you are interested the usual things apply such as rust on chassis and suspension mounting points, the V8 motor is tough, smooth and very torquey, its the hydraulics that frighten most people. Its the same system as used in the Citroen SM and CX, with the brakes and steering powered by an engine powered hydraulic pump operating at 2500psi. Steering is very direct and self centres even when the car is stationary. I have owned several CX Citroens over the years and it is essentially a very simple, effective and reliable system. Just find a mechanic familiar with it. Most of the wear occurs in the pump,and the gas spheres are easily replaced.
I own a Pantera, and love it, but i have a soft spot for Maseratis from that era such as the Khamsin and Bora. Brilliant cars.
Steve

 

i'm in step w/ steve...i have owned three masers including a bora...wish i still owned my bora but that is another story.

i once walked into gary bobileif's shop w/ the intention of asking some service questions for my boxer. in the shop was a PERFECT khamsin red w/ tan...a full bobileif restoration that was about 100k a few years back. i asked what the car would go for and he said $45k. i said I will buy it now! he then went on to say it was just sold and that i litterally missed it by only 2 days.

i was and remain sick. it was a completely new car w/ full nut and bolt resto. that car was simply perfect and those lines are one day going to be recognized for their beauty. a 599 ferrari could never hope to look so nice!!!

 

Would know a thing or two about Meraks?

 

What do you want to know?

Joe
Khamsin #1226
Ghibli SS # 2110
Mistral # 1216
Bora # 1046

 

I've at least driven both.

I drove a manual Khamsin across the Arizona desert last year. It was an amazing car. The engine had been rebuilt and blueprinted at 326 HP, and it felt as fast as a 300HP+ car should. It is not as brutally fast as modern supercars, but you soon learn to appreciate the endless reserves of torque of that magnificent V8 up front. Actually the engine sits almost entirely behind the front axle, which makes for surprisingly good handling. The gearbox is slick and the clutch is very light (thank the Citroen hydraulics), and the steering is very direct and perfectly calibrated (again, hydraulics...). Only the brake pedal feels strange at first, very brutal and non-linear (I kept on locking the wheels). It just takes time to get used to it. The Khamsin drove beautifully in 100F+ temperatures all day, cruising at 100mph+ all across Navajo nation. The engine stayed cool, the A/C worked perfectly, and the comfort was excellent for a 30 year old. This is a car that was far more modern than its age, it would have deserved better marketing as IMO it was a much more "complete" car than a 512BB, and also safer (less snatchy and easier to control).

The Pantera I drove briefly in Switzerland. It feels like it has endless torque, not unlike the Khamsin. However it sounds and drives in a totally different way, you can feel the "yankee" origins of its low-revving engine but the chassis feels unmistakably Italian. Overall it felt like a less sophisticated car than the Khamsin; to use an analogy, if the Khamsin could be compared to a samurai sword then the Pantera is a hammer .

Me, I'd go for the Khamsin any day, if only because of its design and engineering, plus it has a magnificent 100% Italian engine. However if you want old-fashioned mid-engined fun without all the trouble typical of complex and delicate Italian cars, go for the Pantera: it will not disappoint and will always put a smile on your face.

 

Small concours in Hollywood Florida in April 05. Mike D's silver car and mine; he refuses to change the bumpers! The Pantera was a bit souped up and was owned by an older Italian.

Andre's comments are spot on; I wish I could have come on that road rally; the Khamsin is the ultimate road rally car from that era; charisma, big carburetted V8 with fabulous noise incredibly precise and rewarding to drive, with extreme ease; would cross the US or Europe any day in one.

A Pantera is a big hairy vroop vrooper in contrast. I rode in a pantera GTS when I was a kid in Paris many years ago; the driver had us sideways around a cobblestone square, then accelerated to 80mph down an avenue! Much later when I briefly drove the Bora Group 4 and rode in a 512BBLM it reminded me of that Pantera ride.

The Khamsin and Pantera are really too different to compare. If you want a Pantera be sure it has the big sump; you need it to avoid oil starvation in that chassis. Would love to track one, but not necessarily desperate to drive it cross country; good earplugs needed!

This being said Khamsin's regularly outdrive Daytonas on track days in Europe; they are very fast and efficient and don't betray you.

Best regards,

Marc

www.maseratikhamsinregistry.com

 

Still getting used to these forums!
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sorry, but this I doubt very much!!!! The Daytona has the much better weight balance due to its transaxle gearbox and much more punch in higher while the Khamsin is slightly better torquing in lower revs. Also the Daytona-brakes are much better to use on a race circuit. I drove my Khamsin #058 many times on various circuits and can clearly compare both cars as I had a Daytona from 1973-83. Both cars have to struggle with their weight on circuits.

Ciao!
Walter

 

None of them are really track cars. The Khamsin is beautifully balanced but as Walter says, it was never designed for the track. Enjoy it on long relaxed driving stints, and it will reward you far more.

 

Thanks for your impressions Andre, great to hear about these old cars.

I've loved the Khamsin from the moment I saw one in Holland around 15 years ago. I much prefer it to the Pantera, but have driven neither, alas.

There is a beautiful one for sale in Germany at the moment: http://www.mariobernardi.de/mario-bernardi/english/cars-for-sale/maserati/1977-khamsin-detail/index.htm

Onno

 

I have had 3 people tell me, quite clearly, that they were able to beat Daytonas; the handling, the brakes and the torque are superior and last time I checked a Khamsin has excellent balance as well as perfect weight distribution.

 

Hi Marc,

Say you couldn't possibly be biased in favour of Khamsins could you ;>))
Did you take yours with you when you left Florida.

Bob S.

 

Me biased in favor of Khamsin's? Your honor I protest! I have absolutely nothing against Trucktonas...oops err daytonas;-) LOL

To be fair I would love a daytona but I have driven 5 of them and despite their fabulous engine they are big heavy things; at Le Mans those who raced them were never sure of stopping at the end of the Hunaudieres (Mulsanne straight) and that is with proper racing brakes so you can imagine the brake fade on a normal one if you seriously push it; any good driver learns the Khamsin brakes and Emerson Fittipaldi, in a 1974 test drive for Quattroruote when he was world champion said they were the best brakes in any sportscar and could not get them to fade, despite a test drive on a track (Casale near Turin; no longer exists) in the middle of a summer heatwave. He did however say it understeered too much.
It is funny when most period articles proclaimed brilliant balance and handling but horrible brakes that the world champion would say exactly the contrary!
It comes down to skill and experience.

I just know that crossing a mountain pass for example such as the Abetone above Modena towards Lucca which I did last year several times in boring rental cars (but those fabulous roads more than made up for it, specially at 3 in the morning with no one around!), that the Daytona will absolutely exhaust its driver whereas the Khamsin is so precise, so easy and molds itself so exactly to the wishes of a good driver that the truckto..sorry Daytona driver will cry uncle and ask for a massage.

Even on straight easy roads it is hard work; I came back to Fort Lauderdale from a weekend in Key largo in the Khamsin once and was rested and happy...the next morning at Motorcar Gallery I had to take a Daytona to Tim Stamford's and I thought god what a crude lump and got annoyed with it in 3 miles of traffic!

No my baby is in Fort Lauderdale in a warehouse, I was there in the fall and enjoyed driving it again, I miss it a lot but have to be in Europe right now for family reasons.

To be honest if I had had the car in Modena last year or in Burgundy right now here, with these fabulous challenging hill roads and no traffic or police I would end up in the scenery; it is too addictive! Florida was boring with the straight roads, just good for top speed runs, saw 160 indicated about 25 times but there just are no twisties there; a great pity.

I did have my car photographed by Jerry Wyszatycki a week ago; one of the best photographers in the country; he owed me a favor since I introduced him to Cavallino...in 1992 and he has shot many of their covers since. He shot my car with a model, did car to car moving shots, twilight, the works and it came out superbly; am preparing a page of these photos right now.

You have a Khamsin yourself if I am not mistaken? I would love to hear about it!

Best regards,

Marc

 

Me biased in favor of Khamsin's? Your honor I protest! I have absolutely nothing against Trucktonas...oops err daytonas;-) LOL

To be fair I would love a daytona but I have driven 5 of them and despite their fabulous engine they are big heavy things; at Le Mans those who raced them were never sure of stopping at the end of the Hunaudieres (Mulsanne straight) and that is with proper racing brakes so you can imagine the brake fade on a normal one if you seriously push it; any good driver learns the Khamsin brakes and Emerson Fittipaldi, in a 1974 test drive for Quattroruote when he was world champion said they were the best brakes in any sportscar and could not get them to fade, despite a test drive on a track (Casale near Turin; no longer exists) in the middle of a summer heatwave. He did however say it understeered too much.
It is funny when most period articles proclaimed brilliant balance and handling but horrible brakes that the world champion would say exactly the contrary!
It comes down to skill and experience.

I just know that crossing a mountain pass for example such as the Abetone above Modena towards Lucca which I did last year several times in boring rental cars (but those fabulous roads more than made up for it, specially at 3 in the morning with no one around!), that the Daytona will absolutely exhaust its driver whereas the Khamsin is so precise, so easy and molds itself so exactly to the wishes of a good driver that the truckto..sorry Daytona driver will cry uncle and ask for a massage.

Even on straight easy roads it is hard work; I came back to Fort Lauderdale from a weekend in Key largo in the Khamsin once and was rested and happy...the next morning at Motorcar Gallery I had to take a Daytona to Tim Stamford's and I thought god what a crude lump and got annoyed with it in 3 miles of traffic!

No my baby is in Fort Lauderdale in a warehouse, I was there in the fall and enjoyed driving it again, I miss it a lot but have to be in Europe right now for family reasons.

To be honest if I had had the car in Modena last year or in Burgundy right now here, with these fabulous challenging hill roads and no traffic or police I would end up in the scenery; it is too addictive! Florida was boring with the straight roads, just good for top speed runs, saw 160 indicated about 25 times but there just are no twisties there; a great pity.

I did have my car photographed by Jerry Wyszatycki a week ago; one of the best photographers in the country; he owed me a favor since I introduced him to Cavallino...in 1992 and he has shot many of their covers since. He shot my car with a model, did car to car moving shots, twilight, the works and it came out superbly; am preparing a page of these photos right now.

You have a Khamsin yourself if I am not mistaken? I would love to hear about it!

Best regards,

Marc

 

now it becomes b******t! Look at the specification sheets! The weight with the Daytona is much better than of the Khamsin. I strongly assume that none of all those "experts" you mention ever drove a Daytona! Ferrari also saw the potential of the Daytona and build some of them in race trim! Many of the Daytonas were later converted to race specs. Every heared that from the Khamsin??? But its true - none of both cars are real race-cars!

I drove my Khamsin on the very twisty Alfa-circuit of Ballocco between Turino and Milano. I had much fun there but also experianced the limits of this V8-Maserati. Same I did on many laps on the ol`172-curves Nuerburgring. I had a Daytona in front of me and could clearly see that it was much more precise on the steering on that circuit. On the long 5-miles straight I only could see the axhaust pipes of the Daytona! While the Khamsin had better torque in curves it was always loosing time in the positioning and brake point. Also the gearbox of the Daytona is much more precise than the ZF from the Maserati that was originally designed for -- trucks! Even the behavior of the high-axle is much with the Daytona much superior over the Khamsin.Real weak point with the Daytona are the brakes which are fading after some laps while the Citroen-system hold a little longer until the "green soup" gets so hot that they also start to fade.

Hah - I would love to see those "experts" you mentioned getting faced by a Daytona!

Ciao!
Walter

 

Hey Walter

Ah you wouldn't be biased against Khamsins just a little, kinda maybe, even slightly? ;>)

No, it's that green blood thing again isn't it? ;>)

Marc would appear to be a little overly enthused but then that's where the term fan originated, a.k.a. fanatic. Perhaps you might be similarly include towards Meraks????


Marc,

Sadly no Khamsin as yet as I'm plenty busy enough with a couple of other Maseratis right now and an Espada I acquired or should I say it acquired me last summer?

I would need more seat time in one as the steering was a quite a shock. The brakes I'm used to as I have a Bora. We spoke about 5 years ago when I was doing an article on Boras for an event and needed to get some info on the Thepenier #3001.

Does that gentleman still own #3001? I'm familiar with the more recent exploits of the other one in the historics. There also seems to be a lot of confusion about the serial numbers of these 2 cars with many references to 3001 when I believe that they are actually refer to the one Guikas owns, #3000, or has he now purchased both?


Bob S.

 

Then there's also this reference to # 3001 by FGM himself!

http://www.carguytour.com/files/living_in_italy.pdf

very near the end

I believe that's #3000.

 

Bob:

Thanks for your nice emails; I was busy today and am driving 300 miles back to Paris tomorrow but I have started gathering info for you.

In the meantime could somebody please let me know who is moderator on this Maserati section?

Thank you,

best regards,

Marc

 

Buying and restoration tips.

 

Hi Bob,

there's an impressively fresh looking red Bora (with allegedly only 14000 miles!) for sale on ebay, starting price $40,000. Do you know more about it? Considering the current Euro/$ exchange rate, it looks like a bargain for European buyers.

There's also a clean looking manual Khamsin on e-bay, worth a look, so far the price is $26000 (again, a dirt-cheap bargain for Euro buyers...). Any idea where it comes from?