This is a shameless advert for the USBOSS series. I got out of bikes and into historic car racing seven or so years back. One day I saw Duncan Dayton come down the hill at Atlanta in his 95 Reynard IndyCar. It changed my life.......... and I was campaigning a 90 Chevy Spice GTP at the time! Thus it came to be that the very first open wheel car I drove was Scott Pruett's 95 Lola IndyCar. I now run a 99 Lola ChampCar. The moral of all this is that anyone with a functional brain (and the means, of course) can drive some of the fastest stuff on the planet. On the low end of the spectrum are F3000s and the high end are things like the later Ferrari, Jordan and Benetton F1s. We cheapos in the middle drive Indy/Champ cars and spank most of the F1 guys on a regular basis. You can find the USBOSS schedule at www.hsrrace.com. It includes tracks like Watkins Glen, Mt Tremblant, Road America and Road Atlanta. I've got a good bit of technical stuff at www.lolachampcar.com if youre interested. If you are even remotely interested, please drop me a line. We are always looking for good sensible people to run with.
Do you enter the Brian Redman Challenge at Road America? I'm going to try and catch it again this summer. A neighbor of mine runs the Toad Hall group and usually hits the circuit.
Just curious, what exactly do you mean by "spank the F1 guys"? You mean the cars are faster, or there are better drivers in your series, or both? What kind of times are you posting? Where? While I am asking questions, what's your annual budget and how many races does that cover? Jim
Obviously I am cheating just a bit when I say spank. I do it because my cars tend to run most of the time and the F1s are a little finicky and hard to keep running. I have passed Larry Connor's Bene a bunch of times as he was sitting on the side of the road. In short, I drive customer cars that were designed to do 500 miles flat out in pros hands. The F1 guys drive, or at least the 90s and 00s, drive cars that were designed to do two hours and be rebuilt. When I beat them, it is mostly because of an unfair hardware advantage. With respect to comparable drivers in the two cars, the best would be to point to Duncan Dayton and Larry Connor. Duncan drives the championship winning 95 Reynard IndyCar while Larry had a 91 (or 92?) Bene and now has a 94. They were swapping the outright track lap record at Atlanta (in the 10.7 range I think) and one of the two of them had it right up until this last ALMS race. They were knocking on the door at VIR and the Glen (up until the IRL ran there and did not bother to lift for any of the corners!). I am just an average driver with a best at Atlanta of a low 13. Other examples are- Track Larry/Duncan The rest of us Road America low 50s high 52s to mid 53 Watkins 35ish mid 36s My point is, and I am a good example, you can run one of these cars, do 4G lateral through the kink at Road America at 172 mph lap after lap and not kill yourself or others. Again, this assumes you have half a brain (which most people do) and are willing to creep up on the deep end. You can do it, survive the experience and have a very good time in the process. I just want to get the word out so that others that have the same interests know that there is a place to give it a go. As for budget, I probably spend about $8K per race including engine time but does not amortize off season crack testing. It would be a bit better if I split my trailer with someone as I currently take one to run and one to show. If you have ever looked at an SCCA Atlantic budget, its not half bad for significantly more bag. Lastly, Toad Hall rules. Those guys are great. I took a year off last year to follow up on a fuel injection project. I have gotten done what I needed to and am looking forward to running the rest of this year. I would have been at Atlanta but found that everything goes to hell and a hand basket when you do not run for a year. Even my golf cart would not start!
A good friend of mine just bought an Indycar Lights racer and this year with that car he is eligible to compete against the guys with the historic F1 cars. I wouldn't be surprised if he kicks some ass this season. Right now he is at Road Atlanta and soon at Road America. Can't wait to get an update. Bill, you probably "bump" into him.
Bill, it sounds like a kick. Why do you all let up on the corners? Is it hard to get the aero right? Do you guys have vendor track support? Tires? Wrenches? Parts? Or do you have to provide your own support? A buddy of mine had a Formula Ford, and he ended up hiring a mechanic full time, it was cheaper than paying as you go and the guy was there on track days. What do you do? Does that 8K/track day include all your technical support? It sounds about 8 times more expensive than what I pay to run the Viper. Too rich for my blood, I'm just a working man. I envy you. Enjoy and be careful! If you are ever at Putnam Park, shoot me a message, so I can come by and check it out. Jim
With respect to costs, I guess it is all relative. I've been told a competitive Atlantic engine from Hasselgrin (sp) is over $1K an hour to run! For me, that makes XDs a bargain for the HP you get. The far extreme are things like the 3L Cosworth in the 94 Bene. The guy from England comes over every time it runs and I would suspect they only see 500 miles between rebuilds. At an average lap of 125 mph, that is a little over three hours of run time. I divide $35K (a guess on my part for shipping and a refresh) by 3 hours and have a heart attack. Again, it is all relative. Street cars are definitely a lot more cost effective per track mile. I suspect they always will be. With respect to support, I run my own cars from the fuel control to the engine refreshes to the crack testing. It's a hobby for me and I am a nut for all things technical. I have had full time help when I have brought in several new cars to the shop but, once you have gone through them and have them set up properly, they are not that much trouble to run. Lastly, I lift because I just do not have the stones of someone who does it for a living. Most people do not understand just how good someone is who does it (successfully) for a living really is. Just do a quick lap time comparison between a very good pro and his gentleman counterpart in something like a P1 in ALMS. It is not uncommon to see three, four or five seconds difference and that is an eternity! The hair on the back of my neck stood up watching Dario approach the bus stop at the Glen. He was hitting 179 mph, lifting to set the nose to turn in then getting back on the throttle. I am doing 190, standing on the brakes, dropping a gear and cursing through. I just could not believe how well the road course Indy configuration rotated. Its no Williams but it definitely gets though the bus stop a lot faster than I am willing to go. It is worth noting that my car does 36s at the Glen and NEVER moves and I leave a foot or two on track out. I suspect Dario's car is moving a bit. Again, there is a huge difference between someone who does it for a living and hacks like me. It does not me us hacks do not have fun as well.
The key is to get a handle on the engine refresh activity. We made some changes to the valve train to improve spring and gear/chain life. That moved me away from the $15K Cosworth refresh every 500 - 750 miles. Beyond the engine, there are just four corners, a box and a turbo. The Garret ball bearing turbo is good for 5K miles if you keep the incoming air clean. The corners and gearbox are overkill for historic road course stuff and thus they last much longer and require much less maintenance then something like an Atlantic or F3000 (which are much closer to their design limits). Pickling is a twenty minute pain every weekend but that about sums it up...
Here's a pic of my friend's car. Unfortunately he didn't do many laps over the weekend as he was sick as a dog. Bill, what's the livery on your car? Image Unavailable, Please Login
Don't get me wrong. ChampCars will never be the 500 pound lighter carbon brake equipped monster that a modern Ferrari F1 is. We just have the benefit of dialing down the rpm and upping the boost to keep the same horsepower while improving engine life. Dial the rpm down on a modern F1 and you are hosed for power. Maybe one day I'll have a chance to drive a modern F1. Until then, I just need to be happy with what I have.
It is. I'm still working on convincing him to let me drive it. He is actually willing, the trick is to find an event where non SCCA etc. folks can legally take it for a spin. I'm also working on convincing him that he really needs a BOSS F1. Thanks Bill for the answer. BTW: The boys from Vegas offer the chance to drive a modern F1. Best thing about it from my perspective: They're coming to my town this summer (Jack, you reading this?). Buckle me in pls.
Andreas: Last time I checked, there were no dates scheduled for '07 in LV, at least not yet. Do you know their intentions for this year? I'm seriously considering going if/when dates become available. Thanks. Ira P.S.: Sorry for the partial hijack.
They're going to be in Chicago at 4 different dates in July. They'll run at the Autobahnclub and I will get a drive with them. C'mon over, Chitown is a lot closer for you than Vegas and I'll invite you to dinner. Also in August they will be at Road America. Same deal. Check out their website, they just got an additional car: Williams FW 21!
http://www.lrsformulausa.com/f1/ Bill, sorry for the hijack, but then again this is kind of in the spirit of your original thread. One of the things I realized while talking to my buddy (with the Indy lights amongst other race cars) that running these machines costs serious money. And having gotten a bit of an inside perspective on the costs, deals like renting the F1 car no longer really shock me pricewise. You could even argue that such opportunities are a steal.
Let's say someone gets to drive one of these machines. Let's say Mikeeee likes it. Well, there you go, we just might have a BOSS convert. I am all for it...
My buddy has already driven the 88 Lola once and he is hooked. I think it is more of a matter of figuring out the finances. I have driven a F1 myself once and am hooked, but I won't buy one. Just pay and drive is good enough for me.
THANKS. Either Chicago or Road America is much more appealing to me than Vegas, so I may just take you up on that!
Funny you say that. To me actually Vegas would be more appealing since I have driven Autobahnclub and Road America already. That aside, Road America wins hands down compared to the others. Just based on historic relevance and elevation changes.
Actually, I just meant that I have no interest in seeing Las Vegas- have never been there and feel no compelling desire to change that. Hell, I've never even bought a lottery ticket, much less played any casino games! Evaluating this based solely on the track venue, I agree that RA would be cool, especially since I've driven on nothing but Florida tracks for years (Moroso, Sebring, Homestead)- what's an elevation change? ;-)
That looks mighty cool. I think costs are all relative. As tempting as the allure of an F1 car may be, I can appreciate saving up and applying the budget towards racing, even in a lesser formula.