Cost of ownership and reliablity for 330 GT - opinions?

Hi Everyone,

I usually hang in the 308/328 section, but am a non-owner. However, I've noticed that my driving style isn't really suited to a true "sports car". I've got a Porsche Boxster S, and while its a great car, I find I'm doing more "cruising" in it rather than straightening the curves.

Anyway, that said, I saw a few 330 GTs recently on Ebay, even checked and there's one for sale close to me in Denver. I think they are beautiful cars.

My question is, what is the reliablility and drivability of the 330 series cars?

I'm not a mechanic / wrencher type (I can change the oil, plugs and a few other things, but I'd never dream of tearing apart a tranny).

I know there is a substantial price difference between a 308/328 and the 330 cars, based on the current market, although in the past the 330 wasn't such an expensive car.

I'm a sunday cruiser, but I don't want to spend 30G's on a tranny rebuild like one I recently saw on ebay.

Is it really possible for me to buy a 330 GT in good condition (maybe a recent amateur resto) and drive it regularly without having to worry about a major expense?

I'm probably a year or so away from really deciding, but I'm just curious.

James in Denver

 

the info will be up at www.wwgauctions.com shortly after auction... register there and you can access

 

Honestly, I don't think there are ANY Ferraris that you can buy and not worry about having a major expense coming up, with the exception of cars still covered by warranty. I don't care if it's a 308GT4 or Mondial, all the way to a million dollar 275GTB/4, that concern is always there.

The good news is that, IMO, 330s and 365s are perhaps the best of any Ferrari to own from a reliability and maintenance standpoint. So, if you're debating between a 330 or a 308, I wouldn't let maintenance be a deciding factor.

One issue you will encounter with the older car is availability of parts. Your car will probably end up sitting in a shop for weeks at a time waiting while you or your mechanic source parts, but once you find them they're usually not that expensive, as exotic car parts go.

 

There are lots of very experienced guys on this site who should give you an experts opinion. In my opinion the 250 - 365 cars are bullet proof, ONCE they have been set up right. Remember they are built on or are very close to Le Mans race cars. So once the race team set them up right, they were good for MAX racing over 24 hours. So IF you buy RIGHT then they will offer years of trouble free driving as long as you do drive them. I have been out many times with up to 45 cars and NEVER have any of them had trouble. Howver if you buy badly, then that can be very expensive. Take your time and talk to as many people who you can trust and who know these cars, as this will minimise your risk.
Good luck. I hope you find a good one as these cars are just fabulous.
John

 

"Average" per year maintenance amounts for these types of cars are almost completely worthless, as they're old enough and most have enough miles to have a steady series of ancillary parts be worn out or otherwise fail and, depending on how the prior owners treated the car, the car may need some major work at some point even though though it runs and drives great now and passes a pre-purchase inspection with flying colors. Also keep in mind that, because until recently they were relatively cheap, there are a disproportionate number of 330's out there that have been owned by people who couldn't afford to properly maintain them and, as a result, have lots of deferred maintenance which is not visible (they're called "shiny wrecks").

This means that it's pretty much the luck of the draw whether, during any given year, something will fail, which may be relatively cheap (i.e., under $1,000) or relatively expensive (i.e., $1-10,000). In my experience, the only way to get ahead of the curve on older exotic car upkeep is to, as soon as you buy the car and periodically thereafter, bite the bullet and have an experienced mechanic who you trust and knows and understands the specific type of car (NOT the dealership) go through the entire car, give it a complete service, proactively fix/replace all of the things that usually fail on that particular type of car, and also fix/replace everything that is worn-out or otherwise broken. Even if you're mechanically handy, I'm not sure that you could do this yourself because, as stated above, the mechanic needs to really know and understand the specific type of car and all of its weak points. Be forewarned, this will NOT be cheap. However, it will save you the time and aggravation of having a steady stream of stuff fail over time, possibly leaving you stranded. For my older Porsche 911, this costs from $3-5k every couple of years, but the result is that it only needs oil changes in between and has been extremely dependable.

However, even if you do all of the above, you still need to be able to drop several (and possibly many) thousand dollars on the car for something completely unexpected. Keep in mind that the Ferrari mechanic working on your $80k 330 will also be able to work on someone else's $500k+ Lusso, 275GTB/4, SWB or California Spyder, so his labor won't be cheap.

Good luck!

 

With the amount of fraud and junk on Ebay I dont think you want to buy a car there. Anyhow, no matter where you buy get a PPI.

I have had 5 cars, incl 4 330's (2GT, 1 GTC, 1 GTS) with the 2 cam motors and all were bulletproof and low maintenance. I agree with the pervious comments that good prior maintenance and a good mechanic with early car experience are critical.

 

James,

If you are serious about a '60s Ferrari GT, go to www.tomyang.net read the restoration diary and posts, it will give you a sense of what these older cars are about.

They really are great cars that are cheap to maintain (relatively) once set up right but, the restoration costs of the 2+2s are the same as the California Spiders or 250 SWBs so they are rarely restored to that level, and those that are rarely come onto the open market. All of the soft bits are 40 years old and need to be replaced, if they haven't been. Usually there are 'differed maintenance' issues. If they were done in an 'amateur' restoration, you will be taking a gamble as to whether they were done properly.

Also, I believe that at least 2 of the 3 330GTs on ebay had issues which kept their prices low.

Now, having stated all of these warnings, I must tell you, based on your description, a well sorted 330GT is EXACTLY what you are looking for, they are a BLAST and aren't so expensive that you're scared to drive them.

Good luck in your search.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I just registered for that site, going to do some research.....

Do you happen to know any history on #6997 Interim 4 HL that was on Ebay? Its from North Carolina, and on the 330GT registry, but I don't know any history besides whats there.

Again, I'm not a "real serious gotta-buy-it-today" person, but thats a pretty car.

James in Denver

 

James,

There was some discussion of all three cars on Tom Yang's site, if I recall there were some yellow flags raised but it seems like a good car to do homework on.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Also check out Ferrari Life's Buyer's guides for lots of insights. I own two GTs and they are bombproof, AFTER the deferred maintainence is caught up. Cost of ownership then is modest, no printed circuits to fail, the post 66 cars have solid valve guides and treated well the engine can last forever (a good friend drove his 330 to over 100,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, but hurt them (overheating or improperly set valves etc) or buy one with a mountain of deferred items and you are underwater. A PPI by a knowledgeable expert is a must.

 

Although many people claim that the 330 GTC is the best all-around Ferrari, in my opinion, it’s the 330 2+2, single headlight (MK II). Yes, I’ve owned them both – still have the GTC but I wish I never sold the 2+2.

The GTC is a fantastic road car but there are advantages and a certain charm about the 2+2. It’s classy, roomy, easy to drive and the driveline is bulletproof. There is absolutely no reason why it could not be used as an everyday driver. Drive it to the supermarket, load up the trunk at Home Depot, pile in the wife and kids for vacation. And, don’t let its looks fool you – It WILL HANDLE!!!

I consider the 2+2 to be the ultimate 12 cylinder all-around car. I know, I owned one as my first Ferrari. The only thing I would add is A/C – the car needs it badly.

Regarding engine life, I have around 120,000 miles on my GTC engine since it was rebuilt. While a bit tired it’s still a great runner. The engine mechanicals of the 2+2 and GTC are identical.

Regarding the transmission, I have worked on a few transaxles on 275s and GTCs, including my own. I have NEVER heard of a problem with the 330 2+2 5-speed.

Once I get settled in South Carolina, I will give serious thought to trading my GTC toward a 2+2.

Bob Z.

 

Bob, wonderful reply based on solid experience. Nothing to add. Jimmy

 

James;

I can't add much to or disagree with advice given in previous posts...just recount my experience.

It doesn't bother me to put my cost figures out here...paid $32k for my 330 2+2 in late 2002, now have about $70K in it, accounting for all costs save insurance and gas.

The car was a barnfind of sorts...3 previous owners, neglected for 20+ years prior to my purchase yet kept garaged and covered, very strong engine with perfect compression, drivetrain excellent (except clutch), body very good with only light surface rust in a few spots, interior dirty yet nice now with cleanup and some other work, scant few $$$ missing bits and pieces.

Out of that $38K above purchase price, about $4k was acquisition cost: PPI, transportation fron CA to TX, TX sales tax, title, licenses and inspection.

It took about $20K in repairs, replacements, improvements, and deferred maintenance catchup in the first six months to get it back on the road

In additon to that, $8K or so has been elective - not absolutely necessary, including a few mistakes.

The alternator, vreg, and starter have failed, and rebuild/reinstall for all was about $1500, with me pulling and reinstalling the vreg and alternator.

$1600 was spent on new rear suspension bushings.

Car had four wrong-size wire wheels when I got it, and $1000 was spent on exchange and labor for correct ones.

The original clutch failed last fall...$3.5K for new assembly and labor.

The remainder has been spent for routine maintenance and odds and ends of all kinds.

This summer, I'm going to pull the radiator myself and have it rebuilt...$500

I'm kind of in-between on mechanical ability...can and have done a lot on my own but take anything to do with engine, trans, etc., to Norwood Performance here in Dallas.

At this point, I consider my car well sorted. It is very reliable, driven often as I can, and is universally admired around here.

On the overall...No regrets about buying a solid fixer upper, rather than a well-maintained car, or a Series I...4 headlights...instead of a Series II.

There is an undeniable sense of pride that comes in going the distance with a needy car. I can say with confidence that I could successfully take on another vintage 12 restoration project.

However, if I were to sell my 330 and look for another vintage Ferrari, I'd likely look for something better-sorted from the outset, unless I got a super-exceptional deal on a needy-yet-exceptional car.

 

James

I have had a 330 GTC for 26 years. It has been my only Ferrari but I have driven a variety of other tipo - old and newer - and still think it is one of the nicer 'drivers', although it lacks out and out performance in today's terms. An ideal long distance cruiser.

I have had few major expenses over the years. The original electrics are pretty poor, window motors ditto. Costs (in the UK) are about $1000-1500 a year, with the odd $5000 hit when a clutch or the suspension bushes have to be tackled with the annual service.

Almost all parts are freely available from Maranello Sales (the official factory outlet for older parts) and there are some good guys in the States. Tyres (sorry, tires) can be a bit costly and sometimes Michelins are unobtanium but on the other hand there are no cam belts to worry about.

My advice would be to buy the best you can afford. It is worth stretching here to get a car someone else has invested in - it will seem cheap in a year or 2.

Secondly, find yourself a good independent. Preferably of an age to have worked with the cars when new!

GT or GTC is a pretty good way into V12 Ferraris, provided you don't want to spend your time screaming around bends.

Good hunting!

John

 

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful responses. As I mentioned at the start of the thread, I'm not urgent to find one (although I do love the looks of the 4HL interim car I saw).

We have a great mechanic here in the Denver/Boulder area, Dave Helms, I'm sure he'll be the one to work on my car if/when I get one.

The guys in the 308/328 section will tell you I've been looking on-and-off for a while, and I literally got beat by 24 hours on a very good 328 by another FChatter.

However, I'm not as young as I used to be, and I really don't have the "need for speed" like I did when I was younger. I drive a caddy, a Beemer bike, and the boxster (which I drive as a Sunday cruiser only) so I'm a bit more tempted to get a nicer older 2+2 Fcar rather than a 308 for my first starter car. Admittedly, the thing that always concerns me is the cost of maintaining them since I'm not a wrencher, but the older cars seem more straight forward if I do HAVE to wrench (to save money) as opposed to the twin dizzy, FI, sodium valve, etc issues I've read about in the 308s.

I know the prices of 330s have risen a bit recently, but I know they had a lower entry price for a while, so I'm concerned (as everyone mentioned) about the deffered maintenance issue.

Thanks again for the advice everyone, I really appreciate the input. I'm going to do more research and do a bit more consideration before making a decision on which type of Fcar to buy.

James in Denver

 

Just to carry this thread a bit:

the ebay 365 GT showed compression test when warm was: 150, 140, 135, 130, 132, 135, 142, 132, 120, 130, 130, 140.

how does this strike any of you?

 

Not a whole lot to add here, either. I cant believe how easy it is to drive my 330 GT. They are REALLY good cars. I bought a car that was in good cosmetic and original shape. However, by now I have had everything fixed that needed fixing. Clutch to brake rebuild to exhaust to minor rust repairs to paint and interior work- you name it, its been done. Although between the last owner and me there is about $40,000 put into it (in addition to purchase price), I was rewarded in discovering it was owned by royalty and a famous author, so between that and its appreciation i am still in the black. I consider it well sorted and there is nothing more I want to do right now. However, though the engine is strong now, one piston is down on compression and eventually it will need a rebuild (just not too soon please, oh, Ferrari gods!)

If i had to do it again, I would insist on a car someone else has redone, but I dont at all regret my purchase because of its history, which cant be bought at any cost.

Remembering that the next step up the food chain will cost you 3X what a 330 GT costs to me there is no reason to ever trade up for just a little more performance.

Dan

 

That is fine. The 120 is a little low but you can test a cylinder a few times over a few days and get different answers. Recently one of my cylinders went from 135 to 150 tested on different days. A wide open throttle when doing the test can also make a difference.

I was a bit worried about my 135 compared to the other cylinders of 145 to 165, hence I re-measured it. I should not have bothered as the car goes like a rocket with that brilliant associated V12 howl.
John

 

All cylinders in my 330 tested at 150-165, which both the shop and I considered exceptional.

The range you give for the ebay car sounds pretty decent, I'd call it badly worrisome if one was sub-100.

James:

I've owned some fast cars but never was a pure-speed maniac even when young, much less so with age. I most enjoy the just-cruising aspect of my 330, and that was a definite factor in the choice of this model. The engine sounds and pure overall mechanical presence are vastly entertaining even if you don't get over 40 mph, but the potential is always there and it will hit 6800 rpm in first, second, and third and 100+ in an eyeblink, sucking air and gas like crazy, with plenty left to go. The engine, exhaust, and other mechanical sounds when driven like this are straight off the track.

The gearbox is the weakest point in occasional aggressive driving. Everything has to be thoroughly hot before smooth fast shifts can be made, and I don't get it warmed up enough very often.

 

Welcome, James, to the world of vintage Ferraris. I hope you find one to enjoy.

The twin distributors is usally still an issue in older Ferrari V-12s! Luckily, the cars are very straighforward mechanically, and can be very, very reliable.

Bob Zambelli's assessment of Ferrari 330s (several posts before this) is excellent and right on.

I love my 330 2+2!

--Matt

 

I had an electronic ignition conversion done summer 2006, and have never looked back. The difference in overall performance is truly remarkable. Norwood's worked hard to make everything appear original...it takes a hard second underhood look to see the components there. We concealed the MSD boxes on the inside firewall, behind the console. You'd never know they are there.

 

Whether I keep my GTC or trade it towards a 2+2, I will do a conversion to electronic ignition.

I plan to use the Crane systems (XR700-0231) and mount both pickup modules in one distributor with the other distributor just handling secondary.

I will, of course, do an article.

Bob Z.

 

Bob,

I just read your earlier post on your 330 experiences in its entirety...well, sounds like I couldn't have made a better choice for my first and probably only Ferrari.

So far, so good on the electric OD in my very-early Series I. My theory is use it or lose it...I keep it serviced, and engage it for at least a few minutes on most drives.

 

James

Just to pick up on Dan's comment.

Don't be too put off if a car smokes a bit. As Mike Sheehan has written elsewhere, you use one hell of a lot of oil before you get near the cost of a V12 rebuild......

John

 

Good point John. Stangely, my car doesnt smoke at all except on startup (a piston ring is the problem). It pulls well and doesnt overheat- i'm not sure you could tell there was a problem if a compression test wasnt done,

Dan