Newbie Intro and questions -- Considering buying first Ferrari

As a first point you are likely to get more replies (and more sense) if you fill out your profile (ok you seem to like Jimmy Buffett but other details would be more helpful). Then if you try the search function there is a ton of info on FerrariChat.

Good luck

 

ABsolutely. If it were up to me, all insurance companies would require their insured to drive Ferraris no less than 5k miles per year! In all seriousness, if you expect to drive <4k/yr, you're well within "normal limits" for typical mileage put on a 308 each year. Just be prepared for higher-than-expected mileage your first few months!

I'm a carbed car owner, so I'll leave this one to the FI guys. However, from my perspective, it seems as though the QV owners swear by their vehicles and vice versa for the 2V guys.

I think your expectations are perfectly reasonable. Buy the best car you can afford, paying close attention to things like service history (and records!), interior/exterior condition, and color combo - you don't have to buy Resale Red, but you'll have an easier time selling a black/yellow/blue 308 than a green/gold/brown one - and you'll do just fine on resale.

I'll go hunt for a thread that lists sites after I post this... BRB.

Best of luck to you, Paul, and welcome to FerrariChat!

 

Here you go:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121708

Do conduct a comprehensive national search, Do get a PPI, and DO NOT buy the first car you see that fits your criteria, unless you are *absolutely sure* it is *THE* one. The US 308 market is strong, with many cars available year-round. Don't rush into anything without doing your due diligence.

 

Hi Paul. I recently became a first Ferrari owner. While I spent months looking on eBay at those offerings, I consulted with local ferrari club members in my area for advice on any offerings that I became interested in. Most were shot down for various reasons specific to each individual car in the auctions. I finally found my "gem" - a 1983 308 GTS QV with 22,000 miles on it through a mechanic shop. The shop owner said he would buy it if I did not!
My recommendation would be to contact a local Ferrari club, befriend the knowledgable guys and ask questions. You'll know when you see the right one! Don't forget to take your advisors out to lunch for their "trouble" too.
good luck!!

 

Hello Paul, welcome to Fchat.

First disclaimer: I have not owned a 308. I own a 328, which is an evolution of the car you're considering.

First, a Ferrari can certainly handle 4000 miles a year. Mine is averaging 10,000 over the past few, and closing in on 100,000 miles. The basic car is very simple and reliable. I would strongly suggest keeping an additional method of transport around, though, because when something does break it can sometimes take a while to find parts. The internet helps quite a bit, but there's still some unobtanium parts out there. As an example, for over a month I couldn't drive my car to work because the window lift mechanism broke and left the passenger window open.

No 308 or 328 is "fast" these days, so the difference in horsepower will likely not be a major factor. Rustproofing, that's a major factor. Ferrari didn't start using galvanized steel until Jan 1983 (people, correct me if I'm remembering wrong), and so the pre-QV cars are more vulnerable to rust. Given your location, that's something to think about.

On depreciation, you're not likely to lose your shirt IF you buy right and avoid putting a lot of miles on the car. Be aware that there are definite breaks in the values of the car around 30K miles, and they're pretty hard to sell once they break 50K. You can get a really good deal on a higher mileage car, but you might have to keep it forever.

On that note, the odometers are very easy to fool on these cars. Buy based on condition, because there's a lot of cars that seem to have "intermittently functioning" odometers.

Good luck. Have you test driven a 308 yet, or tried one on for size? There's been a few folk on this site who have bought a 308 unseen, and then literally could not fit in the car (too tall, big, whatever). Just a thought.

 

Generally, the cars that cost more upfront are that way for a reason. The '84 and on QVs have rustproofing; the earlier ones don't. The 328s have much improved electrical systems -- I would even call them "mediocre", which is great for an Italian car -- and better build quality.

A "nice" '80-'82 will never be in much demand when you sell it, relative to a QV or 328. Buy the best.

They are not modern cars, and weren't all that modern even in 1984. While there's a good chance a 308 will start and run pretty much every day, you can count on parking ramps/curbs crunching the front and underside of the car, steep maintenance costs as you go through $2K clutches etc., curdled milk as you try to stick groceries in the rear boot, and collision damage from all the SUV-driving yahoos who don't know there are cars that are 44 inches tall. Then plan on rebuilding your suspension due to potholes - probably a few $K there if you have someone do it.

And by all means, drive it. But they need a proper warmup, smooth roads and ideally dry weather.

Yes. Ferrari started rustproofing the cars in '84, so they don't rot in morning dew (or at least not as fast), and they continually refined the fuel injection and other bits. Unless you want the collectible fibreglass 308s from '76, I'd say get a 328 or - if your budget is $10K less - a 308 QV. The early injected cars also have a reputation for burning oil, and they were down to 205bhp in the States. So, while none of these cars are fast, you will be at the bottom of the heap in terms of performance.

The 0-60 might not bug you. You can just pop the top, cruise and enjoy the sound. It's a taste of automotive heaven. But know that these cars were way down on power and most people want either an early carb'ed car, 308 QV or 328.

You will end up upside down. Plan on $4K every 3-5 years (3 years per Ferrari) for a major service and incidental items. Then there will be stuff that goes wrong on an old car - e.g., the $400 coolant tank I'm replacing on my very nice but aging 328 (QV uses the same one). Then there's mileage-dependent items, like clutches, brakes, etc., and Bosch FI components that run in the hundreds of dollars.

You will probably do OK on depreciation - there's none left in these cars - but don't count on a profit unless you flip the car pretty quickly and nothing goes wrong in the meantime.

What he said.

Rustproofing was Jan. '84.

Definitely drive one. They're magnificent throwback machines, but fairly high-strung and impractical cars for many of life's duller chores -- airport runs with luggage, groceries, traffic jams, Home Depot trips, etc.

 

I looked at lots of cars and ended up with the least desireable year '80 and love it. Beat up cars and bad cosmetics to some degree ruin the car for me.

The car I bought was the best looking/cleanest one i could find and when i saw it i knew.

 

Therein lies the key to a successful, happy, longterm 308 ownership experience.

 

Not really. From a performance point of view they are almost the same car. Top speed difference? Zero. I own one and have been hanging around 308's and their owners for 27 years. I have never met anyone who has ever maxed their car out. Of the ones who have, they probably drove at 145mph for a few seconds and only one or two times total. Point: who cares how fast it will go because you will never go there or if you do won't spend much time up there.

Acceleration? Basically zero difference. Maybe 0-100 but how often are you going to tach it up to 4000, dump the clutch and speed shift it to 100? I will guess you won't do that too much either.

Some 2V injected cars have an oil burning issue but ignore that too. Either you are going to add 2-3 quarts every 700 miles or 1 quart every 700 miles with a QV. That's all. Besides, if you looking at one of "those" cars, remember it has been running fine that way for 25 years now. So are all the rest.

You are picking between cars that a 16 year old girl (with a carload of friends) can beat you stoplight to stoplight in her new Acura today. Sorry but it's true. The 328's are quicker and they feel like it too, but unless you are looking to spend $10-$15k more for one of those, just pick the best 308 you can find and enjoy your "new" Ferrari.

My advice? buy one with new belts and at least 60+K on the odometer.

 

I considered the Elise. They're fun cars, and obviously newer and cheaper to run (although quality is spotty). For track use, the Lotus would be ideal.

But you do need to drive both - a four-banger Celica engine in back isn't a Ferrari V8. The mechanical feel of the older Ferraris, plus the engine wail, plus the impossibly low body style that everyone loves, plus the mystique of the marque -- the Elise doesn't have it.

When I was on the fence about buying the 328 versus going into another Porsche, the dealer (Steve Barney in NC) who had the one I wanted picked up on my reluctance. Earlier that year he had sold the car I ended up buying (profile pic) to his neighbor, so he knew about the car. But he told me (paraphrasing), look, you can always buy another Porsche and you're always going to wonder about the Ferrari. You may buy it and keep it six months and move on to something else, but you know you can re-sell it because people are always looking for 328s; you're not going to lose much if anything; and you will have gotten the Ferrari out of your system.

Might be the same with you and the Lotus. I'd say this is the time to be in the market for a 308, because they're a huge bargain. Prices are soft (except for the fibreglass cars), depreciation is done, and you're getting a car without all the horrendous expenses of the 355, the teething issues of the 348 or the fussiness of the earlier Ferraris. In fact the 328 and 308QV are probably the only five-figure Ferraris in existence for those of us to whom a sudden $8000 repair bill is a big deal. I have friends who have sold 355s and TRs not because the cars broke but because they lived in constant terror of something bad happening. A 308 is going to suck money faster than a BMW or Porsche, but if you get a good car to start it's far less scary than all the 'common wisdom' (from people who have never owned one ) makes it out to be.

In coming years, we're going to start seeing fewer 308s as they wear out (red/tan '89 328s are the only ones that will always be around -- they were all mothballed). Then the 348/355 will occupy the 'starter Ferrari' spot.

So, because I think you're hooked anyway, I'll nudge you to go Ferrari and figure out if it's you. I regularly park my 328 next to Porsche 997s and portly BMW 6 series here in San Diego and there's just no way I would take either of those cars in place of mine.

Back to you!

 

Paul,

i have had 4 carb 308s in the last 2 years or so and i make it a point to drive them every few days as long as the weather is ok. other than the florida traffic getting heavy at times, i would see no issues why you cant enjoy one on a weekly basis. i really have stayed away from the injected cars due to parts cost, and the fact the carb cars are easy to keep running well with a few tools at the house. sounds like you have a good idea what you are looking for. read as much as you can, and drive a few cars.

 

what costs more on the injected cars?

The fuel injection is dead-reliable BUT it doesn't have the power potential or the sound of the carbs

 

I just spent a few hundred bucks on a fuel accumulator (Bosch). Not sure how that compares to carb'ed parts...

 

I was just thinking; I have 22 years and about 400,000 miles on Bosch CIS and I have never had to fix anything on any of them. Thank god for their simplicity.

 

sorry Doc, i detest early fuel injection especially CIS from trying to figure out a old 911 i had. i wont buy an injected 308 because of the higher parts costs and complicated troubleshooting required.

did YOU do the work on the car?

or did you take it somewhere and write a check.

i cannot afford to pay $95.00 an hour to the local ferrari guy, so i have to have something i can work on at my house with simple tools.

i mean no offense, but there is a big difference between doing the work yourself and always paying to have it done.

other than my belt service, i do my own stuff.

you are the MAN if you can troubleshoot your injected 308 at home all by yourself.

ill stick to old carb cars.

best.


michael


edit... ok you have said you have had no issues.... my mistake. i dont have that sort of luck.... but i stand by my reasoning.

 

Take it from someone who owned a Lotus Elise: Great track car, fun car for the twisties, but hard to live with anytime else. And I didn't have the Track Pack either!

The Elise is quick when on the 2nd cam (below 5000 rpm, it's sluggish), but there's plenty of buzzing and rattles which should be expected from a vehicle that had a priority placed on light weight. But there's plenty of things that make the Elise scary for daily driving: stiff ride, short wheelbase means lots of ride motion, fragile front and rear clams that mean $$$ if you have a minor incident, tight interior that makes any long distance cruising for two pretty uninviting. (Trust me, I bought my car in Reno and drove it down to LA. Not fun sitting in stopped traffic.)

On the upside, the AC works well, the handling is spot-on and the explosive power above 5000 rpm is thrilling (but the exhaust note is not.) And gas mileage is rather good.

But what car do I still miss the most? My old '82 308 GTSi. Nowhere as fast, not as much adhesion (due to the TRX tire package), but it was very balanced, calm, and easily could take two on a cruise. It's a little loud in the 308, but it's pretty darned loud in the Elise too. And entry/egress on the 308 is MUCH better than on the Lotus.

My recommendation is to buy the Ferrari and see if it works for you. If you don't like it, you can probably sell it for close to what you bought it for, and by then, a used Elise will be in the high $20K - low $30K range.

Bob

 

Mine actually have never broken.

I started with an 80 VW Scirocco on 1 Aug 85 that I still drive today. I have done 2 engine swaps (for performance only) and just kept the stock CIS. It has never given me problems on any of the three engines. In fact it was the only car I had for 11 years. It now has a 16V 2.0 engine with about 150 hp and the same FI that VW put on it in 1980. In fact, I have upgraded everything BUT the FI system over the years. Runs great.

Next was my Uncle's 80 Scirocco. Got it with 76,000 miles when he died in 92. I put about 30,000 on it, trouble free. Now it is a parts car for other reasons.

I then bought a 87 16V Scirocco in 98. It has gone from 67,000 to 142,000 with no FI issues.

My 308 has never given me a single FI problem in the 10 years and 41,000 miles that I have had it. She has 99,258 miles on the clock now.

(I have an Alfa with L-Jetronic that has been FI problem free in 11 years and 40,000 miles but it is not the same as the K-Jetronic. It is a little more complicated).


I don't know if I am lucky or what but basically I have 3 cars with over 100,000 each (one with about 300,000) and still haven't paid a mechanic or gotten my hands dirty on any of their Bosch CIS.

Sorry about your 911. I don't understand why your car was such a problem.

 

["While I don't expect to make a profit on the car, I'd like to think I won't end up upside down either" -- quote] (I haven't learned to do the quotes yet, sorry.)

Depreciation on most cars averages half it's value every four years. So if one buys a new $32K vehicle and drives it four years, one could expect it to be worth only $16K at the end of the four year period. Drive it another 4 years, and it will be worth only $8K. A new $32K vehicle will cost about $16,000 of depreciation in the first four years; a loss of $4000/year.

Because the Fcar you're considering is not expected to depreciate, this results in a savings of sorts, that can be used to offset some of the costs of ownership.

It seems funny to me that no one thinks a person needs to be well-to-do in order to buy a new Surburban, but the cost of depreciation is horrendous, and almost always left out of the car owership equation.

I know it can be debated (and probably will be), but I've run the numbers and I think its possible (read: not impossible), to own an F-car for less out of pocket than a new car that begins its depreciation freefall the first night of ownership, provided that you: 1) buy a good car, 2) don't use it as a daily driver, thus keeping repair costs down, and 3) obtain classic car insurance.

Thoughts?

 

I hope i am not out of line but I had the chance to buy a newer 308 I think it was a Qv and the 308 Gt4 that i bought, i do not regret buying the Gt4 Dino,its a 1975 and it looks so much more exotic in person as compared to photos,and its a real screamer., but now when i visit the Local Alfa shop and see the Pinnaferina cars i like them because they are different and cool in other ways.I guess i just like Ferraris , I think how the car runs and shifts is the most important issue. Good Luck , you will not regret buying a 308.

 

True. Every time I see a new M6 or Suburban or (insert new car here), I realize that the major service tab on my 328 is something of a bargain. I took about $18K depreciation on a Merc SLK bought new some time back, and at the present rate it will take a long time before I spend that much on the 328.

But I hate to get into the financials too much. There are no other cars under $100K that I would take over mine. In fact, until you get to F40 or Daytona Spyder territory, the 328 is it, as far as I'm concerned. The hardest thing for me is that, as a former serial car buyer, I walk out to the garage and realize that I'm right where I want to be automotively. (I'm even new car shopping now for a daily driver - using the Jeep for this -- and honestly the best part is getting home and driving the 328.)

With regard to ingress/egress, yes, the 308/328 are far easier than the Elise - just low to the ground. And the seats are the best I've ever had in a car. Try them on - I'm kind of thin. But I find the 328 cockpit super comfortable.

 

One advantage to a 308-328 vs an Elise or other new car is license fees every year. My current license fee for my 308qv is $27/yr. It would be several hundred on a new car + depreciation of a new car. Ferraris are almost cheap to drive by comparison. (10x more fun and better looking than most new cars too)