So, I went to see the 4RE of my dreams yesterday …

And despite of the sizable 3-ring binder of documented history, I had to let her go.

I arrived at a little before noon, after a 3-hour drive, and checked her out briefly before the test drive. She was awesome during the test drive, tight, strong and pulled better than my slightly modified `02 BMW M Roadster with ~300 rwh. Oh, the music coming out of the engine and exhaust, grandioso. During the test drive however, I noticed the smell of burnt oil and the steering wheel was hard to move while maneuvering in the parking lot. Do 308 GTS QVs come with power steering?

Now, time came to put her on the left and check the under carriage. There in the bay under the neon lights I noticed that the front hood cover and headlights were of a different shade of red than the rest of the hood, darn repainted.

Under the carriage:
1) The front lip was scraped beyond what I could accept
2) There was rust at the bottom edge of both doors
3) The bottom half of the doors had several dings in them and what looked like spot-welds under the paint job?!!! (Uniformly spaced inline dents)
4) The bottom, passenger side engine mount was dowsed in oil. When traced, it looked like it was coming from the front middle of the engine, covering the entire AC compressor and saturating the mount.

Mind the less I was bummed. I was looking so forward to that moment all week long, researching and learning as much as I can about these magnificent machines. So, Please, if any of you know of a clean 308 GTS QV, US or Euro spec, to let me know as I am still on the hunt.

Thank you for reading,
B

 

Pulled better than a your M roadster with 300 rear-wheel HP?

Hmmm....

 

I think the gearing is different on the M Rodaster and that drive-by-wire crap with a noticable lag when you floor it. What is the final drive ratio on the `85 308 GTS QV?

 

No, I know what you mean... I've got a 96 Corvette as a DD that makes around 385 or so. There's no debating that it is more powerful than my 2V, carbureted, 1979 308GT4.

HOWEVER.

There are roads where the GT4 would absolutely *whip* the Vette's you-know-what, or at least it sure feels that way. I went on a ~130 mile drive in the GT4 yesterday, including a freeway, Hwy 1 (PCH), and a twisty mountain ridge road (Skyline). By the time I got home, I had a smile I just couldn't get rid of for hours - the damned cars are just SO much fun, it's almost silly.

Heavy steering and "old car smells" are to be expected - the steering alone can be attributed to a particular tire, tire pressure, age, etc. Sounds like you made the right decision based on cosmetic issues, though. Keep up the search, and you'll find THE car of your dreams!

 

No way! That's part of the allure of the 308 steering is that it is so communicative when driving. But yeah, at a stop, it is definitely hard to steer. You only have to get the car going 3 MPH for the steering to lighten right up though.

Birdman

 

Interesting..... I test drove a 308GT4 and a 308 QV, and just yesterday, rode in a 308i 2Valve. The 308 series was MUCH easier to steer than the one 328 I drove. The 328 required SERIOUS arm strength to turn at parking lot speeds.

I wonder if its related to tire-pressure and tire choice. I know both are non-power-steering. The 308GT4 had 14'ers, the 308 QV were stock (15"?) and the 328 were 16"s, but might have been old?.

But the ease of steering was a major influencer to me that if I ever get my first FCar, I would prefer the 308 over the 328 (if I don't get something else, like a 400 or a "classic").


James in Denver

 

The only time a 308 does not smell like burnt oil is when it is out of oil. If you are looking for a museum piece, they are hard to come by. If you are looking for a car to drive and enjoy, the undercarriage might have some paint issues.
I get so frustrated reading these threads from clueless wannabes expecting to find a 20 year old car that has not been repainted and looks perfect and no sign of oil leak.

Go purchase a Miata or continue to drive a bmw.
PS I think someone sent me a similar e mail on a Range Rover website when I complained about my Range Rover always having electrical problems. I took his advice and now have a H2. At least it starts every morning.

 

And I get tired of hearing every know-it-all chime in on peoples' PPI threads, essentially brow beating them into submission! You were a bit harsh, don't you think? Perhaps if you don't have anything positive to contribute, you should mind your own....

Aaron

 

First of all I have never insinuated that I am looking for a museum piece. I do realize that any 308 I would be looking at would be 22+ years old. Secondly, I am new to Ferraris and up to a week or two ago, I thought that none would be within reach. Thus, I am turning to the expertise and knowledge of this board due to my own lack of knowledge to be an educated consumer and make the correct decision so I can enjoy driving what you are driving.

If “clueless wannabes” is the kind of welcome that I am going to get from you, please spare me and the other helpful members like “Birdman, BullFighter, BigTex, Dr Tommy, drjohngober, Perfusion, DavidDriver, and others” who are trying to help a newbie finding the car of his dreams, and keep your clueless remarks to yourself.

B

 

Perfusionist, you read me all wrong!
Quite the contrary, I am recommending looking past the oil leak and the paint and looking at the 3 ring binder of history and the "4RE of my dreams". I am amazed that some potential owners are missing out on the joys of owning a 20 year old Ferrari due to the fact that it has been repainted ( 20 year old Ferrari paint does not look like a brand new dodge) or leak oil. A 3 ring binder of history speaks volumes to me.
I would have a qualified mechanic look at the car, it might not be that bad. And if you do not want comments from those of us that obviously have a lot more knowkledge than you, then do not post asking for our help.

 

I apologize, I was harsh in my first statement. I have a 328 GTS red/tan 33 K miles that I spent all day detailing. Great car, I enjoy driving it more than any other car I have ever owned. Yes, it has been repainted. Yes, it leaks a little oil. Do not reject a car completely due to these issues- you might be missing out on a great car. And mine does not have a 3 ring binder of history- wish it did!

 

I can attest to this personally. I drove ~130 miles yesterday in my GT4, and it was perhaps the most enjoyable drive I've ever had in my car in the 1.5 years of ownership thusfar, knowing all the while that it was leaking oil and has a few repainted panels...

 

But you did not offer anything helpfull for me to consider. Instead you attacked me by calling me a "clueless wanabe" when the whole purpose of this thread is to have a clue about this car.
If you came back and said that the oil leak that I have described above is normal and expected, then that would be a clue to a known charactertic that I would have to live with if I want this car.
As far as paint jobs is concerned, if you want to repaint your Ferrari right now, don't you want at least for the color of the painted panels to match the rest of the car. It's a Ferrari for God's sake. I know when I repainted the front part of my BMW's hood to remove all the nicks and scratches from road use, I made sure that the color matched the rest of the car.

B

 

You know, I often wonder if the Ferraris from the 50s and 60s that are worth millions leak oil ? In closing, I just hope that anyone interested in owning a classic Ferrari does not miss out on what is probably a great car due to some minor issues that all of us have parked in our own garages.

 

Hey Bzubi,

I hope you continue to ask questions, and you'll sure find alot of help here. I've seen drjohngober post before, he's not one of the troublemakers here (believe me, there are some).

Maybe he was having a bad day......... see, we get alot of people coming to Fchat saying "my blahblahblah is better than a ferrari" or "how much do you have to make to own a ferrari" or "ferraris suck because they leak and have a ONE MILLION DOLLAR (my best Dr. Evil voice) service".

I personally ended up getting a Porsche Boxster, but I'm still here, eventually going to get my first Fcar. But I can tell you, I've learned ALOT by asking questions AND looking at different cars.

My advice, keep looking and drive as many as you can.

James in Denver

 

Thank you, that is an advice I can certainly use.
drjohngober, all I am trying to do right now is find the issues that I have to live with and accept as part of ownership of this wonderful vehicle. This unfortunately could only come from people who drive this car, their experience, namely people of this board. Not from someone who is trying to sell this car.
As far as finding a "Ferrari Expert" a "Ferrari Mechanic" unfortunately the person who is selling this car is it. There is no one else within reasonable driving distances that can PPI the darn thing. Someone on the board advised that I ask the person selling the car for a PPI recommendation. I am weary of this for obvious reasons.

B

 

Thank you James,

I hope I did NOT paint drjohngober in any bad way but it earks me when I have researched and allocated the necessary finances to buy this car, researched the insurance on this car and put my insurance agency on standby to add it to my policy once purchased and been learning all long as much as I can about it, for someone to call me a "clueless wanabe".

 

I know your frustration trying to find the right car. Just before I bought mine in Aug 05' , I had searched daily for 6 mos, I finally thought that I had the right car , settled on price, just to have the guy refuse a PPI., the car was out of town, so I refused the deal. I was literally about to give up , when I found one on a Ferrari message board(not this one), I was new to Ferrari and searching everywhere. I even spoke to the mechanic that worked on the car for 30 minutes, as he told me everything that he knew about the car's history and present condition as well as all of the work he completed on the car. (3 ring binder of receipts too)
My point of this long winded diatribe, is that you just have to keep searching, your car is out there waiting for you. It might even be the car you're looking at. Just get a Ferrari expert to give you an honest opinion of what it wouuld take to put it in the condition, that would be acceptable to you. Then subtract that amount from the price that it is being offered, or negotiate somewhere in between. Have reasonable expectations and try to look at as many as possible to compare it to , so you have a reference point.
Finding the "right" car is part of the Ferrari experience that you'll remember for the rest of your life, so relax and enjoy it.

 

I will back up some of the comments made. Cars that are 30 years old are just always going to have some issues. Its part of life. Its like having a dog that got hit by a car that limps. You still love the lil guy dont ya? Okay, John was a lil hard on ya, but really, it sounds like someone really worked pretty hard at keeping the lil girl solid and happy. The oil leak needs looking at, but she sounds like she runs like a scalded cat, the way she's supposed to. A good complete engine service would surely solve the leak and put her good for a long time to come. Probably the front exhaust cam seal, pretty common. Engine compression, perhaps followed with a leakage test if needed would tell you its current health, and you'll know what your looking at. Heck, a good oil leak is good for knocking some jing off the selling price, (I think its leaking on the timing belts) and along with the questionable body (its gonna cost $$$$ to make this car the way I want it) work you could be dragging home a real deal. Spend two weeks with it up on jack stands servicing your dream car, and you could be driving a real winner. Heck, if you didnt see the spot welded door panel till you had her up in the air, no one else is gonna. I say go back and give her another look see and go have it PPI'ed. At least get a good compression test done. Then schmooze with the owner. I have serviced my latest car and played with the distributors a few times, and its still leaking oil on the floor. I think everyone is right, they mark thier territory. Wait till the 355's are 30 years old, they'll leak just as bad.

 

Regardless of all the above, the oil leak, at least, might be minor. The cam cover gaskets are a terrible design, almost as if designed to leak oil at the corners. Sounds more like a cam seal, though. This is common. And it is amazing how far oil travels when it leaks on these cars. If the car needs belts then the seal would be easy to do at that time. If you can do the work yourself cam seals are available for $6 a pop, belts and bearings are $250 and the other stuff you're not expecting costs $500. Don't let the car of your dreams go for a weekend (or two or three) of work and a kilobuck. OTOH if you're having a mechanic do all the work it will cost more. And it will leak from somewhere, guaranteed. When it stops leaking it is probably out of oil.

The rust would scare me away, but that's because I'm much better with wrenches and sockets than sanders and paint guns. A repaint isn't bad if you had to look under the car to see it. At this point all the cars have been repainted. The fact of the matter is when my '95 Volvo gets a ding I'm bummed, but I don't fix it. It's a driver. But when the Ferrari gets a ding, especially a Ferrari owned by someone with enough money to properly maintain it, it is going to go to a body shop to get fixed. The coolest car in the world isn't so cool with a door ding or a dent. It isn't shameful to drive a beater Volvo with a dent (well, no more shameful than a dent-free Volvo, at least). It is uncool to drive even a beater Ferrari with a dent and everyone knows it. Oh, and my 308GT4 had body work done by the dealer before it was even sold. And it is far from the only one! It happens all the time to all makes and models, and probably even more to high-end cars.

So if the car needs belts soon, I'd not worry about the leak unless it looks like it is coming from between the head and the block. If the car has been repainted well, I'd not worry about it, they have all been painted. If the body issues can be fixed by a body shop that can re-shoot just the door, find out how much $$ that is and take it into consideration.

The only twenty-year-old cars that are perfect are the cars you don't own.

 

I'd like to add to this that I've bought my first Ferrari last November. It's a 328 that I knew would need work, and the price reflected that. I've replaced all rubber hoses, changed all belts, tensioners, gaskets, cam seals, injectors, fuel filter, accumulator, valve adjustment, stainless brake lines, front pads, changed ALL fluids, reconditioned alternator, and cleaned all engine bay.
Total in parts ? 3,000 euros , two months, did the job myself.
Next winter it will be painted to make it look perfect and to solve some minor issues.

I would do it again in a heartbeat ... all work was part of the fun, and a long time dream has come true. It is now a reliable car and it will look like a perfect Ferrari next year.

I guess that answers some of the questions here.

 

OK, "Clueless wannabe" was a bad choice of words, but we can all agree that the rest of Dr. John's post was pretty much right on--these are old cars and they have issues, so you aren't going to find one without some issues. Sometimes it is frustrating being a guy that has been on this site a long time and seeing the same questions over and over. Then again, we were all "clueless wannabe" newbies once (especially me) and asked these same "stupid" questions. If you could search for "stupid questions" on this site, about half the threads are in response to them!

So lets get back on the subject of educating our new "clueless wannabe" and turn him into a proud "clueless owner" like the rest of us!

Part of the fun is looking for the car, so don't be in a rush. After you look at a few, you will start to realize what issues are common. I do think that when you drive one, you will love the feel of the non-power assisted steering. I think the 308 steers like a go cart! And yes, tire pressure is extremely important in the feel. Under-inflated tires are like steering a ship.

Oil leaks? Yeah, they all have them, some worse than others. They can be fixed, so don't necessarily turn down a car because of an oil leak. Then again, if you have the Exxon Valdez under the hood, that could be cause for concern, only because it will need fixing immediately, rather than later. Oil leaks are not usually anything catastrauphic...just gaskets or seals that need replacing.

Birdman

 

+1

Also, EDUCATE yourself. Search the archives! I'm right in the middle of doing LOTS of searches (I have been for several months now) and asking LOTS of questions. Of course, they are different now that I'm an owner.
Be prepared to jump on the right car without alot emotion attached to it. (THAT is the hard part!!) The really good cars don't last long on the market. A couple guys have emailed me saying that they 'really wanted' my car, but I felt that I had secured a good education on these cars and jumped on a good one very shortly after it was posted for sale. The toughest thing is to remove the emotion. I made sure and looked at a few before buying. When the time was right, the decision was easy and I was able to contain my excitement for the day it was delivered.
Hope this is helpful...

JIM

 

It's truly staggering how much information is in this site!

I've been researching 308's for over 10 years. I've drooled over them at shows - and honked / waved like a little kid when I've seen them on the road. But, in all my internet travels - I've been most impressed with the quality of info found here.

While we all had to start our Ferrari journeys at some point... obviously, some people are more mechanically-inclined than others - and have a better sense of what constitutes a real "problem" or not. I think reading some of the excellent buyer's guides posted by a few of the F-chat members goes a long way to help dispelling some of the "unknowns" when buying these cars.

My car only has 20k miles - and has repainted areas. Rust can be daunting for some folks - but (depending on location and spread) can be easily repaired. Creased door dings, however, bring me more concern than an oil drip (or two... or three).

I'd say - find that car that's most perfect for YOU... not necessarily the most perfect you can find... I hope that makes sense. - Good hunting!

 

I have felt horrible all day longabout my clueless wannabe comment . I sincerely apologize and would be pissed off if someone had called me that. I just had such a great time yesterday driving my oil leaking, repainted (but now "perfect in my eyes" ) 328 that I took the comments personally .

That being said, I do have a few suggestions that might help you find a great car. I think you are in the Virginia area. I would post in the Virginia section something like " Does anyone know this 328 in .....". I think you will be amazed at how many responses you will get. If the car has been on the market any time at all, there will be some local F Chatters that will know the background on the car. I also promise you that several knowledgeable F Chatters will offer to go by and check on the car for you and give you an honest report. If the car has some major issues, they will be able to tell. Again, I think the 3 ring binder is awesome and impressive. A thorough history on these cars is very rare and desirable. If you can get the car at a reasonable price with minor issues ( discounted), it might not be that big of a deal to get the leaks fixed and paint touched up. Then you will have a great car with all the history.Sweet! Don't overlook what might be a great car with something that might easily be fixed.
This brings up another point. One does not have to be a computer wizard with a laptop to diagnose a problems as do modern vehicles. There are many independent mechanics ( not at the Ferrari dealership) that are a wealth of knowledge and can handle any problem at a reasonable price.
In the Dallas area, we have an independent mechanic ( James at Norwoods) that is hands down the best in Dallas. In my opinion, he smokes the local dealership on all levels-gosh I hope I did not put my foot in my mouth again. Notheing against Boardwalk Ferrari but I think the world of James as do most Dallas/Fort Worth owners. I am sure there are equally talented independent mechanics in Virginia.
If it turns out that this is not the car for you, enjoy the " hunt". We have all gone through it and I actually love looking for diamonds in the rough hiding in obscure places. Last year I purchased a 308, sight unseen, from Durant Oklahoma. I did not expect much but was pleasantly surprised when the car arrived. Even the air conditioner worked...rare.
If you do not want to travel , then post a heading in the Virginia section along the lines of " Looking for a nice 328 ". Again, you will be amazed at the people that will resond to help you find a car that fits your criteria.
Good luck, enjoy the hunt and post pictures when you find your car.
John