The Latest BB/BBi Rim & Rubber Debate Thread | FerrariChat
Buy

The Latest BB/BBi Rim & Rubber Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by buzzm2005, May 12, 2006.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

Page 1 of 6
  1. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #1 buzzm2005, May 12, 2006
    This is a popular subject and it tends to hijack other threads, so here's a new (again) anchor for discussion.

    Before anyone goes nuts: We’re talking wheels here. Wheel mods are very easily reversible. Changing wheels is driven by a combination of technology, availability, economic, and aesthetics. It won’t change the value of the car.

    Observations on rims & rubber:

    The BB had staggered width tires and rims as follows:
    F 215/70/15 7.5x15: Section Height 5.92", OD 26.85"
    R 225/70/15 9x15: Section Height 6.2", OD 27.4"

    6.2” from rim out to tread on the rears! Now THAT’S “period profile!”

    The BBi had 4 same sized tires 240/55/415, which is 240/55/16.33, on staggered width rims as follows:
    F 240/55/16.33 180 (7.08x16.33 metric): Section Height: 5.2", OD 26.73"
    R 240/55/16.33 210 (8.27x16.33 metric): Section Height: 5.2", OD 26.73"

    What do we see?
    1. The BBi rears have an inch less section height than the BB. That's a 16% reduction in the amount rubber from rim to tread. Also, the OD is .66" smaller -- about 2.5%. But the "size" of the wheel in the well is more about the area, not the OD. With the OD reduced .66", this is a 4.8% reduction in area. No wonder BBi rears look skimpier than the BB.
    2. The BBi tire is 9.45" wide (240/25.4). That's a fat tire on a 7.08" wide front rim, which contributes to the "plump" high profile look that says "Boxer!"

    There is general agreement that new rubber technology is better than TRX and that this new rubber is very difficult to find in 15" rim sizes, difficult in 16", easy in 17” Also, period profile in the new rubber is very difficult to find. The trick is to maintain period profile (section height) while at the same time keeping the OD no smaller than .5% or greater than 1%. I am investigating options.
    * My initial scan of tirerack.com reveals no single brand/model in 17” will fit nicely.
    * fchatter boxerman is using 245/50/16 and 255/50/16 from some maker. Goodrich g-Force Sport exist in those sizes but note that front section height is 7.2% smaller and OD is 4.1% smaller (ouch!) than stock and rear section height is 3.4% smaller and OD is 2.6% smaller than stock.
    * Solutions exist using staggered height F 17”, R 18” rims. That might be a little weird.

    I believe that a properly executed 17” rim would still say “Boxer.” If the basic proportions are expanded slightly the smaller section height won’t be as immediately obvious. Knockoffs, relatively narrow rims to keep the plump look, just the right amount of concavity, and the OEM finish are a must to complete the “illusion.” Satin starts to change things, multipiece rimedge bolts move it further, and chrome or blackout….well, let’s not go there.
     
  2. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,448
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #2 Newman, May 12, 2006
    Thanks for doing the research, I was looking through some forza issues and kinesis seems to make half decent looking rims but didnt see any boxer specific ones. They have the usual perimeter bolts but they just look so good on an F40. The neez wheels are probably the best bet because of the OEM look. I would love to toss the TRX's up into the loft, lower the car and have the wheels tuck into the fat wells just right. Im assuming we could add width inboard in the rears?
     
  3. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    #3 JTR, May 12, 2006
    You’re right. Even in 17” or 18”, there are no perfect matches, only compromises. And if you keep a reasonable speed rated tire in mind, the field narrows even more.
    A couple options I was looking at are from Pirelli;
    In 17”. P Zero Russo, front 225/50/17 @ 26.1” tall. Rear 245/55/17 @ 27.6” tall. The fronts are a little too short, but the rears are close.
    In 18”. P Zero Direzionale Front, 245/45/18 @ 26.7” tall. Rear are P Zero Asimmetrico 255/50/18 @ 28.1” tall. With these the fronts are a little short, and the rears too tall.
    I’ve scanned through several other brands and didn’t find anything much better.
    Using 17” on the front and 18” on the rear, or viseversa, might offer a better compromise. I once had a Pantera with 14” on the front and 15” on the rear and it wasn’t really noticeable, so I wouldn’t be opposed to such a match-up. Also, if you stay with a narrower wheel close to stock width it should make the sidewall plump out a little and not look so square shouldered.
    Then the wheel dilemma. Neez would be the preferable choice for looks, but not at 4K a pop. Speedlines are approx. 4K a set, and Compomotives 2K a set, but they don’t look as good as the stock BB, or Neez wheels.
    And since I couldn’t make up my mind, I ordered a new set of XWXs today.
    At some point I am going to go with new wheels and modern tires, the question is just which ones.
    Just my thoughts, John
     
  4. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    #4 JTR, May 12, 2006
    Correction. Please note in my post above the 17" front 225/50/17 Russo is only 25.85" tall. Not 26.1. My mistake!
     
  5. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    26,105
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    #5 donv, May 13, 2006
    I plan to go with XWXs before long. I have nothing against modern tires (I have them on my 365 2+2), but I want the correct size and speed rating, and I don't want to get new wheels.

    Pirelli makes a modern, high-speed rated tire in 215/70, but not in 225/70. That's the frustrating part.
     
  6. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,456
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    #6 samsaprunoff, May 13, 2006
    I, too, have spent hours upon hours looking for various wheel and tire combinations, but with no avail. Basically, I could not find any tire combinations with a suitable speed rating for both of the 15" factory rims.

    As for rims... Indeed, either pricing was way too much, or the style was not to my liking. Eventually, I will be getting a friend of mine to make a set of replica BB rims, but in a 17" (or 18") configuration. The actual size will be dependent upon the rubber I can purchase as well as mantaining the factory front to rear stance.

    For now, I recently purchased a new set of XWX's (from Longstone in the UK), as I really needed some new tires. At first, I was somewhat annoyed at spending the $$$ for "old" tire technology, but interestingly, although they still marked with a "V" rating, they are actually a "W" rated tire...This made spending the $$$ on the XWX's a little easier.

    Lastly, if you are considering purchasing XWX's have the vendor verify the date codes on the tires. Be aware that Coker (US disti) have sold a few fellow f-chatters some old tires... See the following thread:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99576

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  7. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    Nov 5, 2003
    11,560
    san diego/charlotte
    #7 ferraripete, May 15, 2006
    john,

    i would really like to talk w/ you about this as we have a neighbor w/ boxer and aftermarket wheels. we shoulf get together this weekend or next and develop a plan of action. the new xwx's will be a nice fix for you for now!
     
  8. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    #8 JTR, May 15, 2006
    Tires, in a Flash!
    Wow! Talk about fast service!
    I ordered a set of XWX tires for my Boxer Saturday morning from Longstone Tyres, U.K., and they arrived here in San Diego this morning!

    Also Dougal Cawley of Longstone sent a picture of him in his racecar which I'd like to post here, but it's 552kb.
    Does anyone know how to shrink it down to the required 241kb?
     
  9. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
    1,502
    in a house
    Full Name:
    John
    #9 JTR, May 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #10 buzzm2005, Jun 1, 2006
    This just in from my pal at tirerack.com:

    2 x 225/55ZR17 Michelin PILOT SPORT AS @ $189.00/each
    Rim Width Range 6.00 to 8.00
    2 x 245/50ZR17 Michelin PILOT SPORT AS @ $209.00/each
    Rim Width Range 7.00 to 8.50

    That fitment compares to the BBi 240/55/415 (16.33) tire:
    OD delta Section Height
    Front +0.011" 4.87" -6.3%
    Rear -0.087" 4.82" -7.2%

    Now do ya like PS A/S? That's the question.... Decent reviews on tirerack.com.
     
  11. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    26,105
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    #11 donv, Jun 6, 2006
    If I'm not mistaken, that is the Pilot Sport All Season. I have them on my Audi A6-- they're fine for that application, but I wouldn't put them on my Boxer.

    In any event, I don't think those will work for the BB 15 inch wheel.

     
  12. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #12 buzzm2005, Jun 6, 2006
    Correct. This is for the Neez or other 17" rim. All sizings are compared to the BBi metric rim (240/55/415) which is 16.33" -- closer to 17" than 15".

    That aside, you've asked the key question. Are Pilot Sport All Seasons at least equivalent in performance to early 1980's TRX? My hunch is yes but it's just a hunch. Tirerack considers them ultra high performance.
     
  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,448
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #13 Newman, Jun 6, 2006
    I would think that any tire is better than the TRX. My 308 with the 16" rims would put a hurt on my boxer in the twisties with a plain old good year run of the mill tire. Yes there are other factors but the boxer isnt as predictable as I would like and I can feel the tires squirm when pressed.
     
  14. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

    Feb 11, 2002
    1,532
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Full Name:
    Drew Altemara
    #14 Drew Altemara, Jun 6, 2006
    Coker Tire has the correct Michelin XWX 225/70 VR 15 in stock for the rear as well as the 215 70 for the front. I ordered a pair for the rear a couple of weeks ago. Believe they were around $375 per tire. Arrived in a couple of days.

    Drew Altemara
     
  15. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #15 buzzm2005, Apr 23, 2007
    Bumping this thread since the BBi wheels thread drew 1041 reads.

    As my BBi is undergoing her major, my wallet is open. I have decided to skip bottom end mods (pistons) and concentrate on rims and modern rubber.

    Can I get a sense of how many people want a 17" rim or an 18" rim? It appears that either size will have to be custom made for The Boxer Look unless we go with Neez and the jury is out on availability in aluminum (magnesium is way too expensive).
     
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    19,711
    FL
    Full Name:
    Sean
    #16 boxerman, Apr 24, 2007
    Buzz yes I am usinG, BFG-gforce sport tires. The smaller diameter is not really a big deal, it makes the car a bit lower to the ground and has some improvement in acceleration, top speed or speeds above 150 in the usa being irrelevant.

    I think great tires are a must, and for a boxer progressive breakaway characterists are also a must. Wet or snow performance irrelevant, that is why I went for BFG instead of theone other alternative which were dunlops.

    A 17 rim will offer much more alternatives still, if the diameter of the final rubber is between what I have now and stock no one will notice the difference. 255 rears are a must to really plant the rear end, I suggest 235 fronts, this is thew front tire width on a maclren f1, as you know orig is 240.

    Tire specs can be a bit misleading as competing brands will sit differently and have differences in diameter for the same specs. Personally I would really like to have some neez wheels in aluminum for the right price. Then I see all thos chopper shows where they cnc custom wheels, can we not get the stock look in a 17. One thing All season tires are a poor choice, real goo rubber is a must, you cannot imagine the difference, and the confidence with which you can drive.

    Who can get us a price on aluminum neez or custom cnc boxers in 17?
     
  17. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #17 buzzm2005, Apr 30, 2007
    Anyone? I'm just getting an idea of who wants 17" or 18".
     
  18. bill365

    bill365 F1 Rookie

    Nov 3, 2003
    3,319
    Chicago area
    Full Name:
    Bill
    #18 bill365, Apr 30, 2007
    Just thought I'd poke my head in here and offer a thought...

    If you are not putting many miles on your boxers, you're basically racing dry rot with your tires, rather than tread mileage. Have you ever looked here for 15" possibilities?

    http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/Cobra/
     
  19. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #19 buzzm2005, Apr 30, 2007
    Interesting stuff but not a lot of DOT certified stuff.... but a good source of race rubber, that's for sure!
     
  20. rodmd

    rodmd Rookie

    Apr 26, 2006
    23
    NY
    Full Name:
    Rod
    #20 rodmd, Apr 30, 2007
    Count me in on a 17" wheel.
     
  21. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def
    #21 RP, Apr 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Likely I will go with 18", remotely with 20". Car is lowered, with suspension about 15% stiffer than stock. In corners, the car now feels like it has so much to offer, but the tires keep it from its potential. The only reason I would consider 20" is strictly to fill up the large wheel well openings.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

    Aug 23, 2005
    1,739
    NYC
    Full Name:
    Buzz
    #22 buzzm2005, May 16, 2007
    Bump. 17 or 18?

    BTW, I sent Neez 2 emails. No reply. Does anyone have a better contact for them?
     
  23. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    #23 parkerfe, May 17, 2007
    Before I would put more rubber on a Boxer, I would first be sure I had the spare $10k to $15k on hand to rebuild the notoriously weak transaxle which will likely fail as a result of the extra grip...
     
  24. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,448
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    #24 Newman, May 17, 2007
    LOL a lawyer with a mechanics license.
     
  25. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
    12,887
    Cumming, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Franklin E. Parker
    #25 parkerfe, May 17, 2007
    Nope no mechanics license here. But, it is not a secret that the Boxer and TR transaxles are their Archilles heel so to speak and expensive to rebuild...and, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the more rubber that contacts the road...especially more modern-sticker rubber... the more stress that will be transferred to the transaxle...more stress on an already weak part can't be good IMHO...
     
Page 1 of 6

Share This Page