355 codes, cats & CEL

YES

 

Vince -

Do you have a Ferrari tech working on the car? What has the SD2 specifically displayed when hooked up? There could be tons of Ferrari-specific things going on.

I know it's a lot of labor, but could you put the original converters back on the car and see what happens with a 30 minute drive? What was the original impetus for putting on the cats?

Have you spoken with Troy at HyperFlow directly? He is fanatical about customer satisfaction, and would probably be a good resource for getting this issue resolved.

 

Let me tell you about Troy. My mechanic has done business with him for years and never had any problems. Troy has been no help at all to us. Only when other problems seemed to start appearing on several 355s and a Ferrari dealer refused to install HYPERFLOWS on a car because of these problems did he show any interest. My 355 never showed any codes until the instillation of the HYPERFLOWS. The original Cats were toast, could no be reinstalled.
We finally solved my problem on Thurs. after 11 months and about $2500 in addition to cost of cats!!!!
The codes that kept appearing were 0102, 1448, 1239. same as the other 355s with the HYPERFLOW problems.
WOULD NOT RECOMMEND HYPERFLOW CATS TO ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Absolutely, what was the fix? The new owner of my old 355 is now dealing with this. The car has Hyperflows new O2 sensors and catalyst computers and a Ferrari challenge muffler (Tubi equivalent). Before I sold the car I put in Bosch O2 sensors and the codes as stated above returned prompting me to take the car to Ferrari of Atlanta. They did a major and replaced the O2 sensors with Ferrari units and declared the car well. Soon after the sale the same codes prompted a replacement of the cats that I had just examined with hyperflows. Thereafter the codes reappeared. The car is running great.

There has to be a connector somewhere that links all four of these O2 sensors that is not working well.

 

We replaced the O2 sensors for the 2nd time and that finally corrected it, I hope. Drove the car from Atlanta to Jacksonville and back with no check engine light reappearing!

 

"The Check Engine light had never come on, even when my stock cats failed and spit out their gold dust!"

This in itself says there is another problem one has to find the source before throwing parts at the car.
What shop is servicing the car? Do they have SD2 experiance and are they able to monitor the engine parameters?

I do not recall the P code number (I have an SD2) but there is one for "worn cats" that is looking at the front O2 vs the rear O2 readings and if there isnt a vast difference in voltage it will throw the code. You are not showing this code so I suspect the cats are fine. Then again even when the cats were bad you did not have a CEL. What are the CO and HC readings on both banks at the header, pre O2 sensor and after the cat? Rarely if ever do the codes point directly to the original problem, they show the result and a person has to look at every possibilty that might have caused this result.

The cat bypass valve code come up when the ECU knows it is not sending a signal to the vac solonoid but it is getting a reading from the thermocouple behind the valve saying its open. I have seen this happen when the exhaust system is improperly installed and causing a side load on the valve hindering its movement, bad bushings in the valve, bad slow down ECU.... The reverse is also true if it is sending a signal to open the valve and doesnt see any output from the thermocouple.

I have yet to see a problem caused by the Hyperflow cats and I feel they are an excellent product. Regarding Hyperflow customer service, I think Troy raised the bar so high that most others pale in comparison. Every failure I have ever seen or heard about with his products has been found to be caused by another fault up stream. When everything in front of the cats is operating properly and the exhaust mixture coming to the cats is proper, they do exactly what they are supposed to do and do it well.

Dave

 

Been following this discussion since purchasing k wrights (luv the car, Ken) 1996 355 in April. I know the O2 sensors were replaced and I have replaced the original cats with Hyperflows. I still get 1448, 0422 and 0432 codes with my OBD reader. I tried leaving the bypass valve open constantly, but I ended up with eight new codes! I deleted all existing codes just the other day and drove to AL this weekend (both highway and city driving, about 300 miles). Even though the MIL did not come on, the 1448, 0422 and 0432 are "pending". I have cleaned all the contacts, etc as others have suggested in previous threads, but I was wondering this: If the bypass valve opens (I can hear the exhaust note change), and the thermocouple does not send a signal indicating the presence of hot exhaust, would this set off the 1448 bypass valve? If the engine management system thinks that the bypass valve should be open (based on input from the BPV thermocouple), would this cause the 0422/0432 cat efficiency codes

Randy

 

800 miles no light!! OZ, new O2 sensors are the latest updated 360 versions!!

 

" new O2 sensors are the latest updated 360 versions!![/QUOTE

What did you do with the extra wires? I am completely unaware of any update.
I get the feeling that the generic, one fits all O2 sensors are being used as the first try. Why did the first set of O2's not do the job? Any part numbers for the first and second sets?

Dave

 

More specific info please! My car had the same issue.

BTW, it seems hyperflow was never the issue. I KNOW it was not the issue with mine, despite having them installed.

 

What is up with this thread?...it doesn't make any sense to me. We go from trashing Hyper-Flow to some newly(??) designed 360 O2 sensor as the fix???????????... these parts certainly work together but failure of the sensors will definitely damage the cat wherein failure of the cat(becomes inert)just pollutes the air. Never was aware that Hyper-flow had any problems....Troy has done this for a long time and his product has always been top notch.......on the other hand Ferrai's cats and O2's seem to be less than ideal......BTW what happened to the OBDII rant that O2 sensors were to last upwards of 100,000 miles and because of the dual O2's monitoring the cats and newer ecu processors that they also were to live longer. Something just ain't right with all of these failures....flawed production runs..bad materials....or WTF else???? F355Bvc, when the oem cats disentegrated you had no prior cel's??....even if they(O2 sensors) went off line(because of failure or bad electical conn.) and it went to open loop mode(if that is even possible w/OBDII monitoring) the cel should have still lit up like a christmas tree.....not unless the Ferrari ecu is also programmed to ignore open loop mode when your at operating temp and rpms are between 1k and redline..???

 

New sensors have blue tops. They're upgrades, new.
Just to set the record straight... We had no problems or codes until HYPER FLOWS. Don't be accusing us of bad mouthing anyone. We are just stating the facts. If you don't have any idea what we have been discussing here and going through for almost a year since the installation of the new cats , THEN BUTT OUT!!!!!

 

OZ. I hope the info on O2s has been a help. You have been the only sane person who has been communicating in regard to these problems. Seems to be about 6, 355s having the same problems with these cats. Go figure. A guess is that something different has been done in the manufacturing of them lately. My mechanic, as I stated before, has been using HFs forever and suddenly he has a problem with mine, others here have a problem, same codes, and even a F dealer has the same problem, and codes, on a 355 with HFs.
I just know that my car had no problems or codes even when the cats wore out.When they were replaced last June the codes started, like everyone elses. Now its fixed and I have documented all that had to be done. All the HF supporters can rant and rave all they want. I think the problems described here by numerous owners speak for themselves. Think what you want. Its kind of like when Consumer Reports runs its test, it just states the facts. That's all I have to say.

 

I know exactly what we are discussing here as I have spent a great deal of time on the phone with Troy attempting to identify your problems and what might have happened. Contrary to what has been posted, Troy is very interested in what the source of the problem is and has been working hard to answer it. BUTT OUT? I think not as I too am now too heavily invested in time and quite interested in finding the cause. I could give a damn who's fault it is but lets stick to facts only and find the real cause. I am positive the problem is not the cats but to make that statement valid one must be able to say what the problem really is.

The converters are bolted at the end of the effective end of the exhaust system. They have no effect on the fuel mixture, the O2 sensor does that. They could be plugged causing a back pressure in the system but that doesn't seem the case here. They could be ineffective due to burn out or contamination but that would only give a bad cat CEL due to the rear O2 seeing the same reading as the front one. The front O2 could have a ground problem and not be sending a proper signal (348 headache we found yrs back) but that is unlikely as the Hyperflows are new stainless and should be highly conductive compared to the old OE ones.
I have wondered what would happen if the thermo probes of the exhaust bypass valve and the right cat were swapped and came up with no answer. I will have to try to recreate this situation when I have the next one on the hoist. The next problem is I do not have a generic scanner as many are now using. I do have a customer with a 97 355 Spider that has one and I can tell you that what his scanner picks up vs the SD2 is completely different, hence my questions regarding the scanner and the tech using it. Another issue I am trying to figure out is why your ECU didnt throw CEL's when the OE cats failed. Taking all of these facts at face value and finding the cause is quite difficult but I am not ready to give up yet. What scanner are folks using that give these codes and where can I get one?


A car is repaired properly when one can rationalize and understand the failure, the cause and the fix. As of yet we have not answered any of the three to my satisfaction.

F355Bvc, try to get the new O2 sensor part numbers so I can get the specs on these.

Dave

 

Vince, calm down....you are the one who posted your problems and asked for help....seeing that this is a public forum you're going to have to learn to control your reactions when someone disagrees with you...comments like "BUTT OUT" ain't goin to solve your issues.....you've thrown your time and money at this,as you say, for over a year so why not sit down,relax and enjoy some freebies from some highly skilled consultants...these guys(davehelms,FBB,Vern,Ernie,Brian,NoDoubt and others) are super straight shooting, no nonsense people with a wealth of experience and knowledge and it cost you absolutely nothing.
Fact:you stated that Hyper-Flow was the problem and you would not recommend their product to any one. Fact: you stated problem was cured by installing 360 upgraded O2 sensors. Well my friend replacing the sensors doesn't cure a bad cat......that is why I said this post makes NO SENSE, and that is why I used the word trashing because I assume you are still running the HF cats which now seem to be magically cured because of some newly redesigned cure-all sensors. Also stateing there are 6 or so other 355's having the same problems after installing HF cats and then adding "Go figure" is a rediculous statement....you still REALLY don't know exactly what your own problem is, so how can you lump all these cars together? A little off topic here but I'm not going to address the codes for by-pass valve because I don't like this design and am not going to waste my time on it......I am also not a proponent of backflow for low end torque either..oh well I'll get off this obsession of mine with that whole set-up....lol
The cat is one stupid ignorant device....it doesn't have a clue about anything...doesn't even know that the car is running,if the muffler fell off, or a header is cracked,etc....it just sits there and doesn't even do anything until it reaches temps on average of 400 to 600 degrees F...it is only a chemical can, acting as a catalyst to covert bad gasses(from stored free O2 molecules in it's rear section) into enviromentally acceptable by-products.....they are built to survive under pretty harsh conditions about 900 to 925 C is the limit....keeping in mind that for every 1% of CO in the exh. gas the exh. gas temp rises approx. 100 C, which means that if your engines combustion EFFICIENCY is out of wack and the temps rise to a point of 2000 F or more(the reason for those temp. sensors...cel trigger) the cat begins to degrade quickly and can melt down causing exh. gas blockage and eventually causing its' guts to be puked out the tailpipe. Now especially for your car with OBDII you have the cat imprisioned and policed by an inlet and outlet O2 sensor that monitors the exh. stream going thru the cat.....even the sensors are non operative until they heat up approx 600 F..heat up time is usually 1-3 min(some of the latest designs can get up to temp in a little over 10 sec.).....while they are getting up to operating temp.(i.e. begin to generate a voltage signal) the ecu has no input from them and makes a decesion to go into what is called open loop mode.....when signal is received by ecu it makes a decision at that point to go into closed loop mode wherein the amount of generated voltage produced by O2 sensors(albeit other online sensors..coolant temp, MAF..etc.) allow for ecu to make decisions/calculations to try and achieve a 14.7 A/F ratio.....isn't that great!...well kinda...their are limits with speed density based systems and those fine tuneability limits are governed by the data that the factory loads in and can only be changed by??? not me I'm too ignorant. When differience between inlet O2 and oulet O2 indicates the cat is down to approx. 60% effeciency...ecu triggers cel. Both O2 sensors and cats degrade over time from heat and contaminents....and degradation is rapidly accelerated thru ineffecient combustion(plugs,FI's,cam timing...and so on), air leaks(cracked header,exh. gaskets ans so forth) which greatly effect exh. gas temps and the ppm count of contaminents. With OBDII and the newer ecu's these engines SHOULD operate soooo efficiently that the cats barely have to do anything....and by keeping egt's well within the operating limits designed into them by mfgs' they should live long and prosper.....why is this not reality???
Sorry to bore everyone with all of this since it is widely known info.
Here is a little side note that may spark some interest for those who want to take their engine to the limit....lets take the 355 w/OBDII as an example.....single MAF...don't like it....it is measuring intake air for all 8 cylinders...but it doesn't have a clue as to how much air is going into each individual cylinder.....better set-up is to atleast have what the 2.7 had i.e.one MAF per cylinder bank alot more accurate than one serving both banks,IMO. Secondly with O2 sensor arrangement per cylinder bank it is reading the cumulative exh. gasses from 4 cylinders...if 3 of those cylinders are running at 14.7 and one is way off(injector,fuel pressure,plug..etc) the O2 sensor doesn't have a clue it's only one cylinder malfunctioning and simply sends a signal which the ecu recognizes per bank and adjusts accordingly which now throw the 3 good cylinders off a little(yahoo....individual egt's per cylinder can immediately diagnose that problem..lol)..........the ecu will try it's best to give you a pleasurable hot rodding experience(closest thing we have had so far in the having your cake and eating it too department) but if their is any doubt/conflict/or questionable sensor input, emissions will always win out in the ecu's decision/calculation making capabilities....thanks EPA..lol
OK Vince....sorry you have had a problem for a year and spent alot of money.....I don't know your car or your mechanic.....there are proper ways to check the cats and some cats that are just clogged can be restored thru cleaning(your oem ones were long gone)...there is also a way to check O2 sensor output voltage and it aint with a scan tool or digital volt meter......the best way is with a DSO(not that common in shops..why???) and I am wondering if the shop you took your car to showed you their test procedure....the O2 senors can also be cleaned and reinstalled if within acceptable values. You can throw money and parts all day at a symptom and never never never get at the cause. I agree with Dave Helms the problem was upstream and the cats and O2 sensors took the hit, but with no cel's????? that is a mystery which I hope Dave can trace. Hope all is well now but this thing may come back to haunt you again....Oz gave you some great advice on cleaning/preparing the electrical, and having that in order is the first practical approach....now that you've done it along with new cats and O2 sensors you may want to look in another direction when and if those frustrating cel's light up.

 

I was still thinking about this after the post..hmmm..imagine that..lol
This is way out of my league and someone with more working ecu knowledge can post as to whether or not what I am about to speculate is even possible or relevant to your problems Vince.
Is it possible for the connectors, ground,wires or whatever to be corroded/loose/cracked/broken and that you would not get any cel's when the oem cats and O2 sensors were in place and being destroyed(would ecu even permit the engine to run above idle or limp mode with that amount of lost data or would cat ecu play some tricks)??? But upon the removal and installation of new parts that connection was re-established somehow in the install process atleast to the point of allowing cel's to operate showing the continuance of the problem that caused the oem parts to fail in the first place....and that by throwing all these new parts on relying solely on codes and maybe not on bench testing each individual part the culprit was never specifically identified...the new oem 355 O2 sensors should have taken care of sensor problem without having to go with a 360 upgrade....I am not even sure if values are identical and how the 355 ecu is looking at this 360 O2 sensor signal if they are not =......

 

Is it possible for the connectors, ground,wires or whatever to be corroded/loose/cracked/broken and that you would not get any cel's when the oem cats and O2 sensors were in place and being destroyed




I do not believe so. The SD picks up code relevant to O2 sensor out of range. This means the ECU is looking for feedback from the front O2 sensor to be within a programed window. It looks for this voltage so to pre warn about intake track leaks, lean or rich run conditions, etc. The light would come on from a no feedback condition yet the engine will run fine. That said, why the darn thing doesn't pick up a blown header is still in question. I can hear the header leaking weeks before any CEL's appear.
Part of my problem as a shop owner / tech is that folks do not want to pay for someone to answer questions such as this and I do not blame them. They want their car fixed and done at a reasonable cost. Brian Crall and I speak often and try to answer questions as to why something happens but beyond those conversations there is little time or benefit to follow through on a complete failure analysis. There are cars to repair and folks are waiting. If we can come up with a method of identifing a problem and a repair that will facilitate a perment fix we have done what our customers want.
Reverse engineering a situation like this, with flawed data (generic scanner not capable of reading Ferrari proprietary codes), highly questionable results, etc is beyond a simple task. I have been discussing a car that ate a set of cats and we have been trying to figure that one out as well. One of the issues on that car that was found was someone hacked into the wiring at the ECU and ran wires to the dash for a toggle switch to open the bypass valve at will. I dont know about others but..... I would have been guessing for a life time before that possible variable would have popped into my mind.
I have seen many instances where the O2 sensors are removed from the cats without removing the harness to chassis retainer clips (been there, done it myself) and leaves the O2 wiring twisted like a hemp rope if not done carefully. Failure of the O2 in that instance isnt natural but caused. Silicone sealant being used upstream of the O2 has been a cause of failure. Were the gaskets from the headers to the cats coated with non O2 safe sealant upon install? I had a 550 that would destroy all 4 O2 sensors every time the car was in for service at another shop. After a great deal of effort I found the detailer was using a silicone based buffing agent on the hood and residue ended up in the hood scoop. Beyond having the detailer change his product and tape the scoop opening before buffing I did not chase the problem any further as it went away. I suspect I had found the cause as reoccurrence never happened again but I cant prove it.
The list of possible causes to Vince's dilemma is endless but we can discuss all the variables and see if anything sticks to the wall.
As many of Vinces "facts" do not add up I suspect he is getting flawed data and dealing with a frustrating situation the best he can. My hope is we can identify the real base cause of his problems and then he can form an opinion based on that. Considering some of the weird mods and poor quality repairs I have seen in the last few years, its a long shot!

Dave