SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

ummm, okay I can learn new things so from that then the delta is between atmosphere and manifold pressure, so the reality of mapping it would be to subtract from 760mmHg to get Pa:
70=690=.91 bar
140=620=.82
210=550=.73
280=480=.63
350=410=.54
420=340=.45
490=270=.35

all values in mmHg, convert table two over to bar or Kpa for Tech3/4 and then it should be right (okay i did for you). the delta numbers are irrelevant to other programs. Guess I need to write new maps again, oh well. really would be easier if Marelli would post Pa or just P instead of delta. thanks Russ.

 

That's the thing, they are labled delta 70mmHg- delta 490mmHg. The unit is not equiped with an internal MAP sensor as far as I could tell, but a simple presure senor. It appears to take a baseline reading at ignition on and and stores it, then compares the instantanious manifold pressure to the stored base line, that's why it's labeled delta P. I programmed the maps into my ECU with 8 as full vacuum and 1 WOT and it ran like a champ, and they make sense that way. Also, 32.5 degrees advance is right about where peak hp is found on the dyno....maybe 34, but no more. At 20 degrees at WOT the engine would make much over 100 hp, that's a full vacuum you don't need power and don't want to polute number.....or the correct timing if you are running 25+ psi of boost.

edit: looks like Russ beat me to the explanation.

 

All,

Air/fuel and vacuum/boost gauges arriving next day air tomorrow, Sunday install. Let's see what is happening A/F wise with the new WUR line changes on the road in real time/real world. (plus we get to see what kind of boost I am actually getting)

-L

 

Just to help the discussion for everyone, here is an advance graph for a Euro QV (US not too terribly different); I still think you might be ok to open the ECU to the air, plugging off the plenum which would default the ECU to curve 1.

Another interesting comparison might be to go to the owner's site, download the Owner's Manual for a 288 GTO (essentially a blown qv w/ similar combustion chamber) and see what advance curve Ferrari chose.
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Thought that was a great idea, Just downloaded it. However, there's NO timing advance info in the 288 OM.

 

Doh!
will try the 208 turbo tonight --

 

Here is the Ferrari factory ignition timing data for the Ferrari 208 turbo for comparison and reference.
This engine ran at .6 bar or 8.7 psi, 7:1 compression, max advance 28 degrees, and used Champion N2G w/ .024 to .028 gapping.
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Russ, notice how the timing dips a few degrees to prevent detonation as the engine moved through the torque peak? That's exactly what we were just talking about this morning as what can be done with electronic vs mechanical advance systems.

 

I think it will actually drop into mode one if it sees 'ambient air pressure' by removing the plenum vent.
I like the idea about the limiter.

 

The follow-on question I have is how was the plug read done? The right way is to do a pull at the throttle position/rpm of interest, then push the clutch and kill the engine and check the plugs. If you close the throttle before you shut down or drive or anything else, the plugs are showing you those conditions, not the conditions you were trying to see.

I’m going to agree with Carl in that the white plugs indicate a lean mixture. I’ll disagree on the number though, white plugs means the engine was running at 14:1 or leaner just before they were pulled out. At 13:1 the plugs would be light tan so either the mixture reading is wrong or you didn’t pull the plugs right after the run without closing the throttle. I think a properly done plug read is still the best way to assess mixture because it can’t be wrong or out of calibration.

On the heat range, that “standard” is to drop 1 heat range every 10-15 psi of boost. You want to see the insulator tan with about 1/16” to maybe 1/8” of white nearest the electrode. Yours are all white, so it’s hard to say if the plugs are too hot or not, but I would drop 1 heat range because of the boost as general good practice. But if Carl has had good luck with his set-ups and standard heat range plugs, experience is always better than a guess. My car likes the plugs 2 heat ranges colder, but I’m up around 20psi on the boost too.

 

Well,

I installed a boost gauge, air fuel gauge, and modded a-pillar mount. I then warmed up the car well, took it for a little drive to heat up the 02 sensor, and then got on it on a long freeway on ramp (first run was with no changes from the previous dyno). Air fuel was all over the place, leaning out above 5600, but even worse @ 3500 with pedal to the metal, ignition sputter @ 5800 like before.

OK, so then. Removed the fat vacuum line from WUR and left it open to ambient. Connected boost gauge to pre TB port, left ignition ECU vac line as is on plenum vac port. Instant happiness, AF stabilized and now stays in the rich end of stoich, dips into rich (probably 13) as the boost comes in and stays there to 6500, no ignition blow out that I can percieve. Boost gauge is @ about 5+ psi @ 6000rpm. Only a dyno pull and a more accurate AF monitor will show for sure, but I think all is well.

I'll play with the ECU vac line tomorrow, and try the metered orofice thing from Carl when it arrives. Maybe I can find a long empty (not likely in SoCal) road to do a 4th gear pull floored from 2000rpm to simulate the dyno load.

screen cap below (video to follow)

I'm stoked...
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Very interesting -- glad it's helped that much!

Can you take a picture of your WUR or have the specific part number? I understand that there were a couple different ones that were used on the 308s, even between the QVs.

 

The boost gauge needs to be on the engine side of the TB to be right. If you have it on the CIS side of the throttle plate it will only be correct (read engine boost/vacuum) at WOT

Sounds like you're getting there with evrything else.

 

Yes, I first tee'd in to the ECU line to confirm what kind of vacuum / boost that line was seeing (never gets above 2psi @ 6k), then moved it to pre TB just to see what kind of pressures the SC is making (5psi+ @ 6k). I'll move it back to plenum tap.

More discussion on boost gauge readings vs total SC boost would be appreciated. If AF stays flat @ higher rpm maybe we can go to a smaller pulley. Boost seems low (lower than my supercharged Tacoma V6) @ high rpm, maybe the 4v motor just moves that much more air than the 2v ?

-Lou (very happy Lou)

 

I'm sure Carl wants to start started you off safe and go up from there. The gauge may not be all that accurate either, I know mine isn't when I compare what I saw on the needle to what my data logger says the MAP sensor saw. Also, the boost will climb FAST as rpm goes up, particularly above 6800., so definately get that ignition sorted out and see what you have up top before you make a pulley change.

It's amazing how much more fun the car is with the extra power though isn't it? To me it was like a whole new car.

 

Ohhhh Yeah !!

 

I was honestly surprise just how pronounced the difference was. I’ve hopped up a lot of stuff over the years but never really had hp make the difference it did on the 308. You get up to 280-300 rwhp and the car is just FUN to drive.

Because it was just sop much better with an extra 100 rwhp, I thought, heck another 100 should be great, but that really wasn’t the case. Mine is up over 400+ rwhp and there is no doubt it’s faster, but I’m not sure it’s any more fun to drive than it was at 300rwhp….being able to dropping it in 3rd at 65 mph on the highway and lighting up the tires is pretty cool though. And that of course didn’t stop me from tearing it down again and starting the 500+rwhp engine

 

YOUR A MADMAN !!!!! (not that there's anything wrong with that)

-happy motoring

 

A short video, you can watch rpm, speed, boost and A/F pretty well on the gauges. 1st thru 4th shifting @ 6k up to 90mph.
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Luigi,

Nice video, cool new gauges with the flashing lights! How's that clutch holding up? Are you coming to VCR this Sunday?? We'll be there with Michelle's new Mini Cooper S!

 

Well.....Cap'n, I need more fuel !!

Latest dyno reults and comparisons. Dynorun 8 is baseline (stock), dynorun 14 is 2.80 pulley (wur connected stock configure) dynorun 19 is 2.95 pulley with wur top chamber vac line open to ambient. I don't know what to think at this point, plugs look good ( maybe could go a step cooler heat range) and ignition/spark blow out does'nt seem to be an issue. HP drops off sharply as A/F begins to climb and then we get off it @ about +/- 6000. Comments from all appreciated. (Timing perhaps? It rus almost identical with the ECU vac line disconnected.) Definatley still a huge fuel pressure/delivery issue. Boost is 10psi + with the 2.80 pulley, 9psi+ with the 2.95. Running 100 octane gas.

Edit: BTW, I might add. Prior to this dyno I did a few "test and tune" street runs (4th gear 2500-7000 rpm) tweaking the CIS mixture preload, trying out the vac limiter (bad results), disconnect & re-connect the ECU vac line, changed up to the 2.95 pulley, repositioned vac taps etc. I found what seemed to give me the smoothest and richest A/F on my narrow band gauge (rich end of stoich, dipping into rich, and then dumping to lean over 7K with "street" load on the car, stayed even richer to higher rpm in lower gears @ part throttle....I thought.)
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I see from your photos that your euro motor has the aluminum fuel distributor as expected, which should have good flow... and I think the specs say it flows more than the cast iron fuel distributor on my USA model car. I'm no expert but would presume that if you're *still* running out of fuel, you're almost certainly going to need to lower the boost unless you go to a non-stock fuel setup. Keep in mind that 10psi (and that's at the supercharger, not where I presume you're measuring it off the plenum where there may be some loss?) is the maximum that your Raptor blower is warranteed to run at anyway (according to the manufacturer website, though Carl's website says 11psi)... beyond that, the unit is no longer under manufacturer warranty.

I know you're pretty sure it's not a spark issue, but that *is* something that Nick at Forza and Scott M were concerned about, which is why they bundle the XDI2 unit with their setup (which you know is what I've got installed). But I would think that spark would become erratic if it was a problem, not "blow out"... but I guess it could. In any case, the XDI2 lets me customize the advance any way I want to smooth out any flat spots or dips in the curve.

Anyway, that's my (mostly uneducated) thoughts... I'm sure you'll get it sorted out one way or another!

 

FYI, been taping boost gauge off the pre-TB port, so thats full sc output.

The more I look at the dyno info, the more I think advance/retard is one big contributor to the issue (but not the only one) especially when I review all the other dyno and advance maps available here. Also, I'm now thinking that my recent EPA California emissions retrofit may play into it, as I have a non lambda euro CIS that has had a frequency valve circuit added, along with O2 sensore and lambda control of course (and those great big cats!). Maybe I should look there to at least some degree ?