Monaco GP RACE **SPOILERS**

an aussie knocking a pom well thats a first

 

The FIA doesn't ban 'manipulating finishing orders', but punishes 'damaging the reputation of the sport'. So it's pretty much up to the FIA to decide whethter the reputation of the sport has been damaged or not, it doesn't depend on actual maneuvers or manipulations.

That's it... I think team orders make pretty much sense as F1 is a team sport. But Dennis has been the loudest to cry out for them, so he should rather stick to his own rules...

 

Didn't you watch the start? Hamilton was in the "block Massa" role, while Alonso took off for T1.

A sound strategy, to keep the drivers from taking each other out: which McLaren has had happen several times over the past few years.

But currently against regs.

I don't think FIA will do any penalties this time, but I think Ronco is on notice that there better be *some* competition, and if Kimi and Massa don't provide it, McLaren will have to let their boys bang wheels.

Modern F1 is "entertainment", not sports.

 

+1

He is doing very well and that's great but there are limitations and they are the reason he is already behind the two McLaren drivers in points. The gap will continue to widen.

Schumacher in the Ferrari would be leading the charts by now with probably 4 to 5 victories to his name.

 

Yes, I saw the start. Same move that Schumacher did for most of his career.

 

I guess you could say the same about Hamilton.

Ted, I still disagree with you. He is not Michael Schumacher, no one on the grid is, but statistically in 2007 he is still as good as any other driver. He was the only car not lapped by the McLarens, and from what I understand, they were not able to dial in maximum traction for either Ferrari. The team does not consider Kimi's mistake completely his fault, the car just was not sticking as it should have, the engineers were perplexed. Previously Massa had one race where mechanical issues put him at the back of the grid, and another race where he tried to pass where no one except Heidfeld even attempted a pass. I do not see that as an error but I see that as at least he tried.

No one except Heidfeld has successfully completed an on the track pass this year, not Alonso, not Hamilton, not Kimi. Only Alonso tried an on track pass in Spain but Massa held him off, so the pass was not successful. I did not hear anyone slam Alonso for trying and failing, eventually losing the race.

The fact remains that Massa is upholding Ferrari's hope at this time in the season. Without him, this would be a disasterous 2007.

Ted consider in five races :
Massa 2 wins, 3 poles, 2 fastest race laps. The closest driver to him is Alonso, with 2 wins, 1 pole, and 1 fastest race lap. Raikkonen is next with 1 win, 1 pole, and 1 fastest race lap. Hamilton 0 wins, 0 poles, 1 fastest race lap. How can anyone still be thinking negatively about Massa?

The margin between Massa and first in points in slowly narrowing, only 5 points now. The longer wheelbase Ferrari will be more at home in the next few races, so unless the McLaren makes incredible technical advances ahead of Ferrari, there is no reason to think the Massa will not ultimately take the points lead.

I will stick my neck out here, and say that by the time they arrive in Monza for the Italian GP, Massa will have the WDC points lead.

I am having a tough time understanding why anyone with race knowledge can not accept that Massa is one of the four best on the grid, except for personal predjudices based on the past. Can not a person improve in their skills?

 

I will stick my neck out here, and say that by the time they arrive in Sao Paulo for the Brazilian GP, Kimi Raikkonen will have the WDC points lead.

 

I will stick my neck out even further and say I don't care which one of us is right, as long as one of us is.

 

I will stick my neck out the furthest and say that .........Lewis Hamilton will beat Alonso in points this year.

 

Totally agree with Senna3xWC, were we all watching the same race. Hamilton was no where near the back of Alonso, the only time he EVER gained was when Alonso slowed correctly for a waved yellow and Hamilton disobeyed racing rules and did not (he should get a warning for this).


Not directly at anyone in particular but the 'mob' posting cr@p lately:
Some of you just want to bash Alonso ... why?, is it the anti-French thing? (even though Alonso is Spanish). Sorry but wake up and smell the roses. Whether we like it all not the French have a brilliant record in F1. Renault is the top technical provider to F1 since motorracing began. Yes Ferrari has been in F1 longer, but Renault has provided the cleverness ... and also was racing in the very first motor race!

Hamilton is very good, but Alonso is the number 1 driver at McLaren and rightly so. Alonso WILL win this years WDC I believe and that is an impressive feat, moving from one team to another and winning back to back championships.

Now yes Hamilton is great, but did you see how many times McLaren had to fiddle with his car as he MOANED about setup ... this is a concern, when the race is on it is time to buckle down and get on with it, not to continually fiddle. Ofcouse I was listening to British commentatry so may have got more information about what he was doing, and yes ofcourse adjustments occur ... but I am a little concerned he might be a driver that is never happy with his car.

Alonso has raced this year exactly as he has done all his F1 racing career ... making the most of his car without taking too many risks. Hamilton is still to learn this but yes it is exciting seeing somebody push so hard ... once he has a few wins under his belt he will learn from Alonso how to race and this will be a thing of the past ... except (like Alonso) when it is really needed.

But please reduce the orgasims about Hamilton being faster than Alonso ... they are not even competing in the same battle, ie. Alonso is and always has been racing for the WDC, Hamilton is trying to prove himself and bag that race win.

And for Pete's sake if I hear any more talk about team orders on THIS, a FERRARI (CHEATING TEAM ORDERS TO THE MAX TEAM) site ... well give me a break!. That kettle is well and truly black. The MS God that you and I so loved was protected by the whole team and many times it looked like the whole F1 establishment ... atleast (while ALL teams play team orders) McLaren and Alonso have the balls to hire 2 talented drivers. Something MS should hang his head in shame over IMO.

Look I'm a Ferrari fan, but I'm not blinded by stupidity. This year we have 4 good drivers making it interesting ... one I expected to be doing better than he is (Kimi) which is a concern, and one new blood who hopefully has a great future. But just because I support the F1 Ferrari team does not mean I'm a ******** ... some of you take this way to seriously and personally. Basically we do NOT matter, we are but fans, thus sit back and watch and discuss like adults, please.
Pete

 

your logic is undeniable.

 

Ah are you willing to bet on this? Because although I think Hamilton may have more potential and will eventually reach a higher level than Alonso, Freddie still has the edge.

 

Doesn't happen often, but I agree with you. If hamilton had been on the tail of Alonso all race long then I would think the team issued team orders. The fact is Alonso drove a great race and even tho everyone wants to see Hamilton win, he wasn't up to pace with his teammate this time.

 

Yes one can certainly improve their skills. On the other hand, you're making a claim that Massa is one of the four best on the grid based soley on statistics. If everyone else on the grid was in a Ferrari that would be a great point. Massa is expected to perform in such a way because aside from the other Ferrari and the two Mclarens, no one can compete with him because of the car handicap. The reason there is a "Everyone hates Kimi thread" is because people recognize that he's in one of the best cars, but isn't really performing up to everyone's expectations for various reasons. So while Massa may make a fight for the championship, I wouldn't classify him as one of the four best on the grid, skill wise. This is why I am eager to see a race that is drenched with rain because it's an equalizer. Last year, on those crap bridgestones, it was pouring at the Hungraian GP, Michael was racing up front while Massa was in the back passing and getting repassed by Ralf, and dodging Sato. One of the reasons why I said that if Rubens was still in the car, Ferrari would have won the constructors, but that's another arguement. If Massa performs well in the wet this season, then that's a CLEAR indicator that he's improved his skills, and not the quality of the car.

 

Good point, but wouldn't your theory also apply to Hamilton to be fair? He is in a great car, but all he is doing is being consistent. Haven't seen him attempt any passes, he is just consistent. Yet it seems like everybody thinks he walks on water. Let's see him drive on water.

Right now, I would say the McLaren is the better car. Ever so slightly, but still better. For that reason, I am not convinced that Hamilton is any better than Massa. Just a feeling, sort of based on some input that I seem to get slammed for, but nevertheless, I think Massa is within a heartbeat of being as good as Raikkonnen and Alonso, and is very likely better than Hamilton. I have never been convinced that Alonso is the best, for me, the test would be for him to be in a mediocre car and still perform well as did Schumacher when with Benneton (sp?). When the McLaren did not run well a few races ago, Alonso did not do well and blamed the car.

So I guess we will all see what happens by the Italian GP. By then, it will be clear who is better.

 

In all due respect, I am not sure what you are trying to say. Alonso is Spanish, what does that have to do with the French and small penises? :}

I can see why many on this forum think that Hamilton is better than Alonso, for his first year, this kid has truly done well in an equal car to Alonso's. And now they are tied for the WDC. Not bad. And I do believe that Hamilton is in fact racing for the same WDC as Alonso. Maybe everyone should just sit back as you say and watch an interesting season unfold.

 

WTF is this hang up about driving in the wet and it being an 'equalizer' ? When was last wet race in F1 ? 1 race maybe 2 at the most races a year are in the rain. The season in and of itself is the equalizer as it will show how a driver/car/team performs over time. Not a 1 wet race anomaly in a season. And what if there is no wet race this season then how will you judge his improvement ? These guys test and race so comparetively little in the wet yet some seem to think this is the ultimate yard stick by which to measure a drivers skill set. Not sure about you all but I see huge improvement in Phil's 'dry' driving since his Sauber and early Ferrari days. And it's this driving that has him 5 points from the lead and that the constructor has full confidence in. And that's the bottom line.

 

I'm just continually amazed that hardly anybody will give Alonso any credit.

I personally was more impressed with Alonso completely destroying his team mate in the Minardi, and then blowing away Fisi in the Renault (hardly surprising though).

Facts are that Hamilton is in one of the ONLY 4 cars that are seriously in contention. With Kimi not able to make up his mind whether he is a racing driver or not, then Hamilton automatically podiums. If Weber for example was in that car the same would happen.

But I agree Hamilton is exciting ... but he is looking good, like Massa, because of the very good car under him AND he is fast.
Pete

 

Idea: A non-point race where drivers switch cars (automotive swingers). Let's put the top four drivers in the cars that consistently qualify as the last four. And let's put those last four drivers in the McLarens and Ferraris.

Now that would be a true equalizer.

 

Yes but there are differences. First, Lewis dominated every junior series that he competed in full time. GP2, F3, Renault, karting etc. So we saw his talent from a ways away. He's also been quick in wet conditions in the lower formulae. Also, despite the fact that Lewis is probably the best prepared F1 driver to date, he's come in here with a huge bang and is immediately on pace, and hasn't done anything stupid. The worst he's done so far is crash in practice, at the most difficult track on the calendar. Most rookies don't even finish their first few races, including Massa.

At Monaco the Mclaren was superior, i'll give you that for sure. On the other hand, look at Melbourne and Bahrain. I would say that each race the edge slips from Ferrari to Mclaren and back.

Here is where we disagree big time. Firstly, I myself haven't seen anything that would suggest that Massa is as good as Fernando, Lewis, heck maybe even Heidfeld. If I see him perform well in the wet and pull off some overtaking manouvers like Heidfeld did on Alonso at Bahrain(awesome, especially in an inferior car) then i'll think he's improved enough to compare to Alonso and Hamilton. I'll also say that Kimi is the better natural talent, but he just isn't settled with the team and doesn't have the experience at Ferrari that Massa has.

That's more difficult nowadays that it was back then, due to the cars being easier to drive and passing more difficult. Heck, some reports even state that Michael's Benetton had TC illegally back then. Also, the Benneton was the second best car compared to the Williams, and Michael was far more talented than Damon Hill was, so winning with the Benneton for him wasn't as difficult as say winning with the current Renault.

For me, it will be clear when I see how Felipe performs under a series of situations. Namely, as mentioned before, his performance in wet conditions. Also, how well he comes up from the back of the grid again, and seeing him pull off some good overtaking manouvers. If he does all this consistently, then i'll gladly admit that it's him that's performing and not that Ferrari. If he continues to beat Raikkonen in the next couple years, which I doubt he will, then he deserves all the credit in the world.

 

WRONG!!!....Schumacher wasn't blocking for Barrichello, Irvine or Massa. He was keeping anyone from getting in front of him. Hamilton was clearly ordered to keep things safe for McLaren (not saying that's bad, just that it's what happened)

 

I meant to say Hamilton was going after him following the final pit stop, then was told to back off. It was odd that he didn't reel him in until after the pits both times, which suggests his car was probably best balanced right after the tire change, then trailed off towards the latter portion of the stint.

As far as the 'team orders' are concerned, I'm going to assume that McLaren was more interested in getting both cars to the finish, and Dennis felt that Hamilton was probably too eager to take the race to his teammate and ordered the 'hold positions' mandate. When Lewis almost wiped out, it did appear that he wasn't thinking 'team' as much as 'win this GP' or 'beat Alonso'.

Discretion is the better part of valor...

edit: I just read the facts about the issue and quotes from Ron Dennis and Lewis Hamilton. Hamilton's car had 5 more laps of fuel in it and he still almost made pole? He was brought in one lap after Alonso's pit (with 4 fuel laps remaining)? Based on some of the comments, it does sound like some "race engineering" went on...at the least, Hamilton drove the hell out of that car with a pretty clear handicap.

 

it matters not that there may only be 1 or 2 races a year in wet conditions. the point is that driving in the wet relies A LOT more on the drivers skill and car control. thus, it shows which drivers really have 'it', and which ones are getting by on their car's superiority (or lack thereof). it's a bit similar to the old days where there were no traction control/driver aids... if you've ever watched races from those days, even in the dry races, you can tell which guys had the extra level of skill, and which didn't.

 

OK. I think the jury is out on the rain contest. Do not forget that Fiorano has a sprinkler system to duplicate rain conditions. Massa has been practicing.

But I stick to my opinion about Massa. Nothing I have seen gives me any doubts. Except for Austrailia, no one here can say FOR SURE if the Ferrari has been the better car in some races, or Massa took a secondary car to two wins because of his skill. We haven't had a second Ferrari running with which to compare. If Raikkonen had been running, we might have a better idea about the true nature of the Ferrari.

We know the McLarens are good, as both cars have been running very close to each other, and only Alonso has the same number of wins as Massa.

 

OK so we agree that both Alonso and Hamilton are better than Massa? That's Great!