SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

My WUR is part # 0 438 140 116 (can't find one on specialTauto site)

What is the WUR on an american 308QV ? Anyone....?

Maybe we should be looking into Porsche 3.0 Turbo WUR's ?

 

While I much dislike comparing across cars on dynos, if you look at Lou's graph and Carl's prototype dyno, judging from the numbers and the shape of the torque curve Lou may be adding boost faster than the prototype, especially in the higher rpm range. Carl's max hp is in the high 250's, but doesn't seem to get there until later and has leveled off. Lou's car may seem to make it earlier, and is still RAPIDLY climbing when he experiences shut down.

Mike's car similarly peaks about at 250 rwhp, but also at about 7000 rpm much like Carl's. If they both did their dyno runs in the same gear, Lou's numbers suggest his blower bringing in hp much much earlier. Look at the torque curve as a clue.

I was thinking this morning that perhaps Lou had reached the upper limit on K-jet fuel delivery, but Steve's ( 308QV_Ohio) turbo 308QV seems to show 300rwhp is reachable with the CIS. Steve's dyno also shows him reaching his max in the mid 6K range, then falling off rather quickly. He had mentioned he also had some CIS challenges.

Perhaps there is a relationship to how much air pressure to rpms that is critical to the CIS/stock ignition set up and the rate of climb in that flow range. Just looking at data here.

 

Lou,
The boost is still too high. With stock timing I can’t see you getting away with more and 8 psi at redline. If you’ve got 9 at 5800, I would expect 12 or more at redline. I think it is just way too high, at least as a starting point. (the pre/post TB numbers will be almost the same at WOT)

To be very clear, you are not shutting the throttle until 6000 right? The Drop in power from at 5700/5800 in the engine not the throttle? It looks to me like it drops from 260 to 230, that is almost exactly 1/8th of the power, you are almost certainly dropping a cylinder. I suggest you start by replacing the wires and plug extensions (while you’re changing the blower pulley). The 1/8th could be just a very odd coincidence and it could also be a slipping clutch or timing pulling back for some reason, I don’t see how it could be timing though if you got the same result if the ECU vacuum line unplugged….I’m betting on dropping a cylinder.

 

Scott's SC'd 2V also gets over 300 rwhp (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123189)

 

Scott’s system and work are beautiful, but the results always seem to conflict what I thought I knew making it very confusing to me….but there are questions about how stock the engine is and exactly what the boost level is, so maybe it’s exactly where it should be....but I still don't understand how he's making almost as much hp as my car (at 6000 where his dyno run ends) without an intercooler and with a SC that pumps 1/2 the air mine does. I would still love to see what his car does on a dynojet just because I know dynojet numbers can be compared machine to machine and day to day.

 

There is a significant difference between the A/F chart of run 14 and run 19.

Obviously, I want whatever caused the richer condition in run 14 to be put back. If I understand the text correctly, it was having the ECU open to ambient air pressure – but I am not sure about that. Please clarify.

Some talk has been had about where the boost gauge is getting its signal... and although on some other cars that matters more, with our setup on the Ferrari there is little pressure loss and it does not matter much. Any port before the throttle body will be fine. Remember - you cannot compare one owners boost number on his car to another's very well. Too many variables - simply use the boost gauge as a relative number for tuning... not for comparing one car to another. Those comparisons between Thor's Mondial that I did and Lou's 308 even... Thor's Mondial being a lower compression 2v motor and Lou's being a higher CR 4v motor.

My recommendation: put the fuel system into the postion you had for run number 14 which was your best AF ratio. Then adjust the pulleys to bring the boost in where you want it – if you really want to rev to 7k, then you need the larger pulley. If you want the boost to come in earlier, then you need the smaller pulley and to get out of the throttle sooner too as a result.

If you are the 7000 rpm guy, then I also recommend you take about 8 to 10 degrees out of the ignition timing for additional safety. If you are going to tune to shift at 6000 rpm instead, retard the timing about half of that.

I would also suggest a A/F gauge that does not use the colored bands... RED GREEN WHITE just isn't enough information. Either change into a gauge with actual numbers, or (and simpler) is to cut and tape two little telltale arrows onto the gauge at the dyno. Observe at the dyno when they tell you are at 12.5:1 AF and 14:1 AF mark that on the face of the gauge with the little tape arrow. Then you have the info you need.

Stay in the throttle until it threatens to cross 14:1, then shift. 13.5:1 is even better.

Actual A/F (and potential for detonation) is load-dependant and difficult to nail down in all circumstances. Your gear selection changes the final drive ratio, the RPM you are already at when you decide to slap the throttle down, the weight of the person or persons in the car, the angle of the roadway (hills) all change the load - and the perceived AF ratio.

On a MFI system like this old K-Jetronic, we do not have the pleasure of tuning and tweaking out AF ratios in 200 rpm increments like we can on EFI.
So, you strike a compromise that will be 1) safe for the engine and 2) best match the driver's style of driving; and let 'er be.

If, we are there now and the owner wants more HP even still; then we are now exciting the "bolt-on kit" level and beginning the "custom" level. The owner always has that option. I only mention this as we have developed and are offering a "bolt on kit". We have said no permanent changes need to be made to the Ferrari that cannot be un-done and I am trying to stay close to that design concept.

You can always go further... but its not a bolt-on-in-a-few-hours kit anymore. Yes, you will need to use the Bosch 044 CIS fuel pump, perhaps open or make new complete fuel lines of larger diameter, and perhaps send out your fuel distributer for modification and perhaps your WUR too.

I have done all these things to my personal car, and last year was able to produce 460 HP and 480 ft lbs torque on a CIS-fed 5.0 Liter V8. Just shows what K-Jet CAN do. At that point, we began to hydraulicly lock the injectors. It did not matter how we raised their pressure - they could not spray any more. I have spent another $900 on 8 new, larger CIS injectors and will be going back-at-it again in the next month or so. But - this ceratinly is not a "kit" and not for the faint of heart.

If you are interested in fuel distributor modifications, you may want to read this: http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/cisdistributor.php

If you are interested in Control Regulator mods, you may want to read this:
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/cisreg.php

Lou - you have done an excellent job and the Community owes you their thanks. Like Thor, somebody had to be first.

 

By before the TB, you mean on the engine side right? I think Lou now has it on the CIS side so he can't see manifold vacuum and sees his highest boost at high rpm and part throttle, althought the WOT #is probably very close to right.

 

okay, I'll help out here. Lou your Euro set-up with the frequency valve and DOT 'johnson' box is the problem, it's not in the normal bosch location and was used to pass import regs. it has to go to get the fuel you need. even the 'box' is not a bosh part, as was relayed to me during the 80's there were cars brought in to compete with the US versions and were cheaper however they needed DOT compliance so things were done to make them pass.

you have the needed distributor but the WUR has been adjusted so it'll need to be re-adjusted or replaced. you can bolt it off and save it for smog testing and run the complete euro setup when under boost.

 

Hey, call me Lief Erikkson.

RE: bolt on kit, I agree, a upsized pulley and a few more bugs worked out in the WUR and timing & plug choice will probably make this a "stage one bolt on kit". (I still think we can do better with the stock WUR and pump, we need to look at the recent EPA smog work mods to my Euro, and perhaps back off the timing advance as Carl suggests)

RE: run 14 vs 19. The only differences are 19 has the top chamber WUR vac line open to ambient & we are running with the larger 2.95" pulley. Actually run 19 is the richer of the 2 runs across the rpm range , not as flat, but richer by more than 1 whole % (down below 12 @ 4800 rpm and then back up over 13 @ 6100 rpm)

 

No "Johnson box" on my car, it was replaced last year with a later model bosch Mercedes control unit, the 02 sensor and FV, charcoal cannister, and big cats added (expensive work BTW) to achieve California registration requirements. It was a 49 state car with Florida reg prior, and the smog stuff had been mostly removed or disabled, car came in "grey market" in 1987 from Switzerland. Hence my concerns regarding my "recent smog additions" playing into this.

I agree, I would like to disable the lambda system and pull the cats, while maintaining the ability to put it all back for the registration issue every 2 years. For now we need to make this kit work to some acceptable degree as a smog legal bolt on. I would certainly welcome any assistance in the finer points of how to effectivley disable it back to stock euro configuration for the future (like next week).

 

I don't know how you can do that, there is nothing adjustable in the ignition. You might be able to install a pair of boost retart boxes, but at that cost it seems like it would make more sence to install a programable ignition system.....and if you have that, heck you might as well let it run your fue too

 

Can't use that to really compare as it was on a Mustang Dyno and everything else is on a Dyno-Jet. See post 327.
But, the turbo graph shows that boosted CIS can reach that fuel delivery level so that level is achievable with appropriate boost.

 

To answer your questions: the hp drops off before we get out of the throttle (you can see the throttle out point on the AF graph were it dips back to rich).
Plugs are new, wires and extensions are 2 years and 6000 miles old (genuine Ferrari $$$$). It runs like crap in the lower rpm range with the ECU vac line disconnected, I think it defaults to the same advance map as ambient or neutral when it sees boost. The clutch may be an issue, as I have had it slip a little on short shift full throttle street runs, but it did not seem so on the dyno. I'm thinking timing total advance issue, one step cooler plugs.
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I have tapped vacuum both before and after TB depending on circumstance (I have it plumbed so I can switch back and forth). At WOT it sees the same boost in either location, plumbed into plenum the boost does not show up until much higher rpm of course, and is lower until the throttle is wide open and the rpm is up over 5000. I have seen almost 12 psi with the small pulley @ high revs tapped in before TB, 9+ psi with the larger 2.95 pulley and boost gauge tapped at the plemum, post TB. I think its larger pulley time, or else motronic and EFI (not where I want to go).

 

I have on board video of all recent dyno runs which shows all gauges, which I can reference against runfile info (low tech data logging) so I know aproximatley what the gauge is telling me. I fully agree a good wide band 02 sensor "Number" read out analog or digital gauge would be better, I'm headed there as stated earlier.

 

there is no way to maintain the frequency valve and O2 sensors and get the fuel needed for boost, the system will always try and adjust it to 14.7:1. going to the K-basic setup is the easiest and most cost effective route.

as to the smog regs if it isn't the DOT mods than what ever was done is causing the issue, what controls the frequency valve? it needs an ECU to operate.

 

When you lose a cylinder, the A/F reading will spike lean due to the additional O2 from the cylinder that shut down and you appear to have that. If a clutch slips the torque drop and flat line or slightly sink...you have that too so I'm not certain which is your problem.

A timing issue will cause detonation which will show as noise on the graph and you will see specs of piston on your plugs. I don't see any evidence of detonation on your graph.

I think you're dropping a cylinder because the power loss is almost exactly 1/8th the total, an unlikely number to hit with a slipping clutch. I'd start with new extensions or at least give them a good look over. You might also try sliding a rubber hose over the outside of them and down over the plug....or switch to proper resistor wires with resistor plugs and scrap the extenders, that's how I run my car (some one my know better than to try that with stock ignition, but it should work).

 

Perhaps I was not clear. The cheesy little Johnson Controls 80's tech plastic box has been replaced with a larger, newer vintage, and substantially more OEM and professional looking, aluminum bodied, Mercedes logo bearing, Bosch unit (lambda control). This originally Swiss Euro Greymarket car is circa 2005 EPA, DOT, BAR, 100% California Legal modified. And yes, I get the point RE: back to stock config is ultimatley the path of righteousness.

 

Lou,
you da man! This area is outta my league. I'm having a hard time trying to keep up.LOL

Keep going dude!


Chris

 

FYI, your "losing a cylinder" theory has not fallen on deaf ears, looking into it. But also, I do show some mild detonation specking on plugs as well as no visible heat line (mostly dark to the weld) on the ground electrode. Detonation from too hot a plug, perhaps ? A cooler range plug is in order, whats the worst that can happen. I have some Bosch BPR9ESIX Iridium plugs (step cooler) I was going to try out (because my "WEB" research told me they were "the bomb" for supercharged, turbo'd or nitrous shot applications) but I am now un-easy about them (in fact, my head may explode, due to sparkplug design research). Comments? (RE: noise on the graph ??? graph below is uncorrected and 0 smoothing)
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Lou, I don’t see anything that looks like detonation on the dyno graph, so whatever you have is mild and not causing the HP drop. A cooler plug may solve it, but you probably have too much timing (I don't know how you'll change it though), too much boost, or both (more fuel would help, but that doesn’t seem to be an option).

Platinum or iridium plugs main mission in life is to live 100k miles, I have never found them to do anything good or bad for performance. They are expensive though, so I don’t use them when I’m tuning and will be eating plugs or when I know I’ll be changing plus every year anyway. That said, every now and again, I find an engine that just likes a particular plug for no apparent reason, you could try them and see.

 

After sleeping on all this, here is my current plan.

1) Check ignition system completley to rule out dropped cylinder from faulty component, replace as needed.

2) Move to a cooler heat range plug, probably a standard copper or maybe Bosch silver ( on advice of Smg2, Thanks!).

3) Confirm that WUR is of a type compatible with current vacuum connection and frequency valve circuit etc., look into changes that can be made to pull as much fuel enrichment as possible with stock components (for use as a generic stage one kit scenario). Find out what part # the 85 american WURs are and research the differance, if any.

4) Get a larger pulley from Carl @ 928motorsports to dial back the boost to under 8 psi, and/or look into a SC intake side air flow restrictor ( in theory, an air flow venturi type restrictor will allow big boost to come in early, while reducing the air at higher rpm and flow rate , and effectivley creating a richer AF ratio in the higher rpm range).

5) Get a more sensitive and better read out air/fuel gauge.

Stage 2 plan:

A) Look into CDI , with possible boost retard and rev limit capability. It seems to me MSD has some components that would be minimaly invasive, and do the job. Carl seems to think the MSD stuff will not function with the 85 Ferrari ECU (some voltage issue). Comments anyone ??

B) Fuel pump and/or WUR upgrade, so we can dial back up to 9+ psi boost and still see 7000 rpm minimum redline ( I love the track ! ).

 

Something that really helped me was the LM-1 mobile A/F monitor. I could go on real world runs and download the data into the computer for analysis and very exact tweaking of my A/F. This would allow you some tuning feedback without going to the dyno all the time. Once you can do a full accelleration in 4th gear with a known good A/F, then it's time for the dyno.

Just a suggestion.

They are widely available, but I got mine at Pelican Parts (no affil, yada).
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Mine is 0 438 140 083

 

Lou I'm running 20psi on stock k-jet basic with no problems. you have that system already, just need to sort out the WUR and remove the frequency valve.

there are some here who have used the MSD with the stock setup so it can be done. another option is ofcourse the electromotive.

hope it works out for you.