SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

Wouldn't you see a rich A/F reading if a cylinder was not firing but the CIS continues to inject fuel into that cylinder?

Erich

 

You would think, but the A/F "meter" uses an O2 sensor, so it's mesuring how much unburned O2 there is in the exhaust. The more fuel, the less O2 left over and visa vera. When a cylinder shuts down, there is unburned fuel, the the sensor doesn't look at that, it looks only at the O2 and there's a lot of O2 giving an false lean reading.

 

Lou,
your plan seems good, but check with Carl on the flow restructure idea. Centrifugal compressor are sensitive to inlet restrictions, it’s good to have a look at the compressor map just to be sure.

On your plan to track, with the stock power curve, it's fastest to shift at 7700 even though the hp is falling above 6800. The boost may try to go through the roof up there though, so playing a bit with the dyno graphs from different boost levels and plug the touque curves/redline required and gear ratios into exel to see actually gives the best result....the changing redline changes things quite a bit.

Also, for extended high load use, you must must must solve the minor detonation issue or you will be replacing the pistons sooner than you might be planning. On the street, you're never under full power enough to really worrie too much,but the track is another story......

 

I have one of these on each bank on my EFI setup - one feeds the Tec3r. Good stuff.

Check the docs - you REALLY should consider a heat-sink on the sensor before you burn it up!

 

I agree. The way the supercharger is performing on the car NOW is great for the street, its a rocket! (keeping any extended high rpm down to 6000 or so). Its turn 8/9 and the front straight at Willow Springs I am concerned about. Different power peak rpm or not, I see sustained 7000 rpm plus to redline there every lap ( my current AF would probably burn holes in all 8 pistons first lap).

RE: Intake restriction. I do nothing without first discussing with Carl. I know the restriction idea has worked well for others using roots type blowers, and also Vortec (you can't believe everything you read or are told though, just an idea to toss into the list of possible solutions)

 

It WILL work out for me. Just a matter of what path I choose to take to get there.

Thanks for all your help and input, BTW !!

 

And here is the perfect candidate for this project!

http://www.ferrarichat.com/ferrariads/showproduct.php?product=2670&sort=1&cat=11&page=1

 

No Kidding !!! If I bought that.... sold the Euro QV...Installed the Supercharger, Qa1 shocks & Eibach springs, set of track tires and we are good to go ! or not.

 

OK.

So I went through my service records to confirm what was done 6000 miles and 4 years ago, full 30,000 service, including new plug wires and extenders, and as it turns out, new fuel pump, new accumlilator, and new euro-spec WUR !! It's all Ferrari parts and new. I then went over the ignition system for a complete visual check, looking especially close for any evidence of high energy fault from plug wire connections or extenders (everything is looking clean and new as a newborn baby).

Next, I removed the WUR and opened it up to view its construction ( pic below) It appears to be similar in operation to the two spring "vacuum enrichment" delorean, volvo, audi WURs, but has what appears to be an additional adjustment on the electric bi-metal element. I believe the part # 0 438 140 116 is Euro specific. I am going to have to look to the CIS gurus on this one. (I will contact Mr. Fletcher, and run this past Carl Fausett).

I fabbed a WUR relocation bracket to mount it next to the coolant tank and repositioned the placement of the fuel lines to accomodate the new location. In doing so I realized that the recent smog work just put a "bleed line" with a frequency valve between the control pressure line off the WUR and the fuel return line, very simple and easy to disable when I want to (except for that pesky melt your cats and start your trunk on fire thing). If I lose the cats and go back to my euro silencer, and remove the bleed line and FV, I should be back to Euro K-basic CIS.

Comments appreciated.
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Lou - anything I can do to help at the moment?

 

Carl, Yes many decisions on "stage one kit" completion. I'll call you.

FYI, I am replacing the cheesy Air fuel gauge with the full Innovate electronics on board data logging system. Wide band Air/Fuel, rpm, accelerometer, and vacuum boost direct to onboard laptop graphing software, with event initiation button on the dash AF gauge. Should also be able to upload spark advance info eventually once I understand the Aux Box interface. Much better than the yellow and green lights, I think.

 

Did you mean something from these guys?
www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php

 

Sounds really good. While I do not have the whole enchilada as you will, I have been very happy with my Innovate set up. You will find it amazingly helpful.

 

Yes,

This http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/xd16.php

and this http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lma3.php

with direct wire connection to on board laptop hard drive rather than using a data logging memory card storage device. You apparently can program the software to see the on gauge initiate button as an event record on off toggle. Should make setting up the initial kit and later the "stage 2" upgrades I plan very easy, without the need for multiple "tuning" dyno sessions ( I think its a better investment of $$ than throwing it away on failed dyno runs @ $125 a shot and the time they eat up). Plus I get accurate wide band real time gauge info in the cockpit, instead of a vauge approximation of rich/lean with a LED scale.

I kinda feel like the Asian race team in that Cannonball run movie with the onboard supercomputer et all.

Hey So Cal boys, what does this do for my position in regard to the fchat awards "RIZZOTO" catagory ?

 

You could get all the same info from your set up with the add on Aux Box ($229).

You got me started on this with your suggestion BTW. Thanx!

(FYI, I got in touch with Larry in Alabama today, very smart and very nice guy. I'l keep you posted.)

 

You and Plugzit are running an even race in this category but his planned new stainless steel rear spoiler with "reclining mudflap girl" end caps and giant polished velocity stacks poking through the engine cover may push him into the winner's circle! You're going to have to try harder.

 

Thats ok... I think I'll just stick with my a-pillar gauge pod and on board computer and let him take the honors. If he is going for that much NASCAR with street BLING, perhaps the award should be 'THE SPUMONI' instead of rizzoto! LOL

Ciao....

 

FYI,

I received the Innovate Motorsports Air/Fuel and data logging stuff, I will install ASAP, and then....

 

Howdy !

Got a cert of occupancy on my restaurant project today (woo hoo!)

New subject (insert picture of Linda Richman HERE):

The on board data logging set up is installed and just flawless (with a little tech support and product replacement from Innovate, ...good people BTW). I can now do "street dynos" with logged data to review and real time boost, RPM and wide band A/F to watch for safety.

Smog junk removed and back to K-basic Euro CIS (I think) but still only fueling to about 6200 rpm. Here is a copy of E-mail text between Carl and I concerning what is going on. May be boring reading, but input from all of you guys is needed and appreciated.

Hi Carl,



New info as follows:



I have excellent on board data logging with wide band A/F, boost and rpm now.



New colder range plugs.



Disabled Johnson box, removed freq valve and control O2 sensor (made 1 run w/johnson controls intact for base)



I confirmed WUR control pressures (@ idle 1100rpm, 15 cold, 40 warm, 47w/vac attached to lower, 35 w/vac attached to upper).

FYI : I confirmed the freq valve was bleeding off control pressure to adj to stoich, and my control pressures look a little high across the board. Do you think that my wur has been re curved for the smog device to work?



Made several "dyno like" runs, 4th gear 2500 rpm start, WOT to out of it @ danger zone AF. Tried all kinds of different set ups, vac line attachments, rich/lean 4mm cis adj up/down, yada yada. Bottom line is this: 6200 rpm the A/F is @ 13.5 and skyrockets to danger zone from there, boost is 7.59 psi @ 6200 (on 1 run I stayed in it for 1 second to 6600 rpm, hit 15+ A/F, 8.5 psi boost ). No matter what the set up, 6200 is the ceiling.



It was interesting to see that vac applied to the wur upper chamber lowered the control pressure and enriched the A/F, maybe some possibility there? I tried a connection to the intake side of the supercharger, but it doesn't build enough vac to do any good.



Looks like bigger pulley time for a bolt on kit is in order. I don't see any reason to go back to the dyno just yet, do you?



Lets talk by phone ?



best,

-Lou


Carl here,
My thoughts:



It sounds like you have hoses to both the upper and the lower chambers of your WUR.

That is OK for Naturally aspirated, but on a boosted car, if you add boost to the lower chamber the upper chamber cannot push down and enrichen the mixture as much or as quickly.



Remove the hose from the bottom of the lower chamber. Plug it at the car side but leave the lower nipple on the WUR open to atmosphere.



The hose from the upper chamber must see a good source of vacuum-and-or-boost. I distrust vacuum nipples on the throttle body as they have vortices in them to do various things (increase or decrease suction). Better is a nipple right into the center intake plenum. THAT is reliable reading of whether the intake is in vacuum, atmospheric, or under pressure. Hook the top of the WUR to that nipple.



Probably this is the same nipple you found for your Blow Off Valve. Just put a tee in that line and run the WUR and Blow Off Valve off the same line.



Let me know!


Carl,

Actually I have tried many various combinations and hook ups to the WUR, I am well versed in what effects vacuum and or boost has on the control pressure if connected to either or both top and bottom ports. I also know what I can expect from various vacuum taps, been there, done that. (I have vacuum, boost, and fuel pressure gauges and test equipment. Also graphing data log software).

Here is what I know to be true: vacuum applied to lower chamber raises control pressure by aprox 7psi @ idle (clean A/F at idle, enrichment at throttle up), under boost this effect is removed and the control pressure is decreased back to 39-40, but no less ( the effect under boost and load at rpm above 5000 is identical with the lower chamber open or attached to the plenum). With the lower chamber open to atmospheric and the plenum vac tap plugged the engine runs very rich (11.3-4) @ idle and must be adjusted to a reasonable A/F (12.0). Vacuum applied to upper chamber lowers control pressure by approx 6psi (33-34), but under boost control pressure is raised to 47, effectivley leaning out the mixture way earlier in the rpm range as soon as boost comes in.

The very best fueling I have achieved is with the lower chamber attached to the center vac tap on the plenum (engine side of throttle body) and the upper chamber attached to the intake tube on the inlet side of the supercharger (14.54 A/F @ 6400 rpm, 7.07 psi boost) The vacuum available there @ 5000 rpm is barley lower than atmospheric, but its better than nothing. With the lower chamber attached to vacuum I can adjust the CIS idle fuel mixture to a nice 12.0, and it richens to a nifty 11.3 before it starts its rocket like ramp up @ 5200 rpm/5.5psi boost.

The worst results ever were with the upper chamber seeing boost.

Another thing that is wierd, (and leads me to believe that my control pressures have been messed with by the emissions equip installers) is that my baseline run with the Johnson box and bleed line/frequency valve intact, is virtually identical to my next run with ALL the smog crap removed from the car, including the O2 sensor, lamda computer fuses, bleed line and freq valve. I think that the control pressures may have been adjusted up via the "plug knock" method, and then the freq valve and bleed line installed to allow the O2 sensor and lamda computer to control to stoichiometric by bleeding or not bleeding pressure off to the fuel tank return. (This is how I have been told the euro non lamda CIS cars were modified for California emissions. We need to confirm what the control pressures of a 85 euro QV should be, unmodified.)

I will try excactly what you suggest (again) just in case I miss read the results last time, just to confirm. My WUR #116, not an #083, definatley raises control pressure and leans out the A/F when pressure is applied to the upper chamber. I can watch it happen on my fuel pressure gauge attached to the wur control pressure line and my wide band A/F gauge in the car as I blow into a hose attached to the top port, with the throttle partly open to about 2500 rpm. If I suck on the line, the opposite happens, lower control pressure / richer A/F. I just did this 5 minutes ago, am I missing something ? If I could get boost to enrich then my problem would be solved, but unfortunatley such is not the case, only vacuum to the top port (and no boost) will lower control pressure and enrich.

Best,
-Lou

OK, new subject ( I have shpilcus in my genecta gazoink, talk amongst yourselves and get back to me. Please).

CALLING ALL CIS GURU'S. WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH WUR CONTROL PRESSURE FOR EURO QV'S !! AND AM I IN A PARALELL UNIVERSE LIKE ILLOGICAL SPOCK OR BIZZARO SUPERMAN OR WHAT ?


Sorry for the rant......input appreciated.

-Lou

 

have you talked to larry 'bout it? i'm sure he'd have the answer for you. your WUR may be modified.

 

Yes,

Larry and I talked prior to my recent changes and such. It was his contention that I probably should send him the WUR for recurving to make sure. I just have to work through this to find out what a "bolt on kit" will require in regard to "stock" WUR etc. I would like to find out what a stock Euro pressure spec is as well as a stock US Lambda CIS so we know. If I am going to spend money and time on WUR mods, I would like A) to have my current one to put back on for smog inspection, B) have a modded one with boost enrichment capability etc.

Hence my post.

-L

 

Yes your WUR is off. Cold too low assuming temp is around 75 deg. Warm too low, without vacume or boost, about right.

I know lower pressure means richer so bear with me.

If cold and warm were higher and without vac the same, you would turn your mixture screw richer. Then when you are at higher rpm and no vac or boost you would see the 40 psi again but it would be a richer mixture due to the mixture screw being turned in more.

In short there is not enough pressure difference from vacume to no vacume. Call me after 4:30 CST I will have my shipping done and can spend more time with you.

Larry

 

Thank you, Sir. I will do that.

-Lou

 

Hey guys,

Looks like we will add a modded boost sensitive WUR to fuel up to higher rpm, rather than lower the boost and sacrifice mid RPM range HP, should work fine, as it is proven in other applications.

New subject:

We would really like to make this kit a simple fit across the board for 3X8 cars.
308 USA, 308 Euro, 328 USA etc. The potential issues lie in the CIS fuel distributor differences (K-jet basic, K-jet lambda, KE-jet), location of several components, and available stock vacuum taps off the intake system. I would like to invite any of you guys willing to lend a little effort in this regard to jump in and lend a hand with answers, pictures, and maybe even CIS fuel control pressure info (from mechanics or DIY Poindexter gear head types like myself). Thanks in advance from Carl and myself.

Lets start simple:

Question 1) on US QVs and 328s, is the auxillary air valve mounted on 2 diagonally oriented studs under the coolant tank as it is on my Euro? And where is the hose connection from it to the CIS unit made?

Question 2) What is the Bosch part # of your WUR, and what is model year and country/state of delivery of your 83-85 QV, or 86-89 328

Input appreciated.

-Lou

 

Lou, I'm just a lonely 2v guy.

Do you need anything from me??

Chris