Four used cams... value?

Dan,

Hard to say, maybe see what Rutlands, etc..are selling them for then undercut their cost a little bit. But otherwise, I'd think that "they're worth what someone will pay you for them"

 

What serial number did they come out of?

Euro cams,,, $ 1,000.00 USA,,,, each...!

USA cams,,,, ????? (well, I dont want them.)

 

This was discussed sort of not too long ago, but it was regarding original p6 cams. A good cam regrind to just about whatever specs someone wants is about $1300 from webcams. Personally, a full set of late a '70s US cams is worth no more than $1k-$1.5k. Reason: Those cams are unfortunately the bastard child of late carb cams and no one would use them, they would have to be reground. Norwood has blanks for sale for I think about $400 each, and they are new.

 

To get technical about it, I think the difference is about .048 lift between the '76-'77 cams and the '78-'79 cams. Big difference, but for some reason, properly setup '78 and '79 cars that I have driven feel about as fast as any early car I have driven.

 

i have walked away from all 6 of the other 308s here with my(sold) black GTB . one of them was a QV. the others were 78-79 GTS's.

state of tune makes a big difference, but i swear the early gtb's have a horsepower and weight advantage.

the reality is they are still slow, compared to even "regular" Honda's and Nissan's ( if i wanted a fleet of rice cars. i could have them ! )

just my opinion, your mileage may vary!

 

In the end, they are ultimately worth whatever someone will pay. Personally, I have no clue as to the quality of Webs cam blanks, but the original Ferrari cams are good stuff, billet steel, gun drilled, hard as hell. How good they would be after welding them up, I dunno. Years back the last thing anyone wanted was welded cams, now it seems to be accepted, maybe they do a better job re-heat treating today? I dunno, but if a cam ever broke in a 308 It would do one heluva lot of damage.

But as has been said, if yours are 78 or later USA CAT cams, well, they arent the hot cams anyone really wants to swap in for performance. OTOH, I dont think they are as bad as the later CIS cams, but no one really seems to know. At any rate, if some poor guy has crap cams and needs a set to ride and drive, yours would get him on the road. I would definetly ask around the various sources to see what the going rate is before you toss em up for auction. But at any rate, they arent worth the $1295 each that clown on eBay is asking for his.

 

A = aspirazioni (aspirate) intake

S = scarico (scavenge) exhaust

The numbers are probably on the other side of the cam if you turn the motor.

 

Uhmmmmm, both those part numbers come up on the Ferrari owners site, Ferrari UK, as 75 - 77 USA 308. Those are the early carb cams, and would be very desirable for anyone with a later carbed car. Worth about 35-40 HP over a later set.

105713 lists for L 546.15, or about US $1060

107995 lists for L 803.50, or about US $1560

107788 should be the other rear bank exhaust, same US $1560 price

The other cam is not listed, perhaps NLA. There is one listed as an S, could mean superceded? number 108006, also US $1560 price.


If you figured $400 each for new blanks, and $1300 for the grind, your up to $2900 for new aftermarket cams without considering the unknown quality.

 

Holy smokes!
I picked up a pair of the early cams (I think they were exhausts) and one of the other and a 4V cam off ebay a while back for a couple hundred.

Give ebay 7 days and it'll tell you exactly how much they're worth.

 

When someone has no clue whatsoever about the quality of reground cams they shouldnt talk down about it like they know better. WEB does great work, Elgin not bad. WEB is THE place to get your ferrari cams redone. A 40HP gain by picking up 1MM lift and slightly different cam timing on an outdated cam profile is the dumbest thing Ive ever heard and to believe it is even more foolish. You would get better 0-60 times by removing your spare tire and toll roll than you would by installing 76-77 cams in a 79 308. If anyone wants a significant gain in power, cams, not even WEB reground cams will cut it, a complete overhaul with matching components is the only way and even then dont expect to be blown away.

 

Well.....I believe they are good for 30+hp if the early or similar exhaust is also fitted, I guess there is a fool born every day

The early 2v cams perform much better then the later ones which do not have enough lift or duration. Ferrari didn't change the CR, ports or anything else except the exaust when they change cams to meet the EPA standards. I would say fitting early cams is a good upgrade for the 78, 79 carb cars.

 

You wont see a 30hp gain with stock cams, rejetted carbs and whatever exhaust you want to use, the lift difference I measured on an early set was 1MM, of course I didnt check valve events but still, no 30hp there.

I know you tinker with engines and you arent a moron, I do it all day long and for a hobby. Ill put money on it there isnt 30hp hiding in the 76 cams.

 

and I would take that bet....now we just need somebody with a 78-79 car who's willing to give it a try

 

Dude, I am trying to be nice, but you dissing me every chance you get and not knowing fully what your talking about is beginning to irritate me.

First off, I have never talked down WEB cam, or Elgin either one. Although Russ's obstacles with Elgin should be a clear sign to give them a very WIDE berth. I fully know that WEB is a high quality shop, and I never said anything otherwise.

No, I simply stated that a Ferrari cam is a "KNOWN" quantity. While some may question thier quality at times, the 308 has never had an issue breaking a cam that I have even heard of, they dont even seem to wear appreciably. And as I spoke, I admitted I do not know what quality WEB has for making a new blank. Is it equal to or better material? Is it cast, forged, or cut from billet? Is it hardened and nitrided? I dont know, and I admitted I dont know. And probably no one does. Short of twisting a cam and noting the torque required to snap it we wont ever know. But I would feel less confident with anything other than an OEM cam.

As to welding up cam lobes and recutting a new lobe, anytime you weld on steel you cause stress. If these were aircraft engines this wouldnt even be getting discussed because you just cant legally do it. PERIOD! Now maybe some of ya'll know something the FAA and all the engine manufacture's and engineers dont know, but you wont be welding and regrinding a cam in an airplane engine, because its just to critical a component and a part that is already prone to breakage. Welding them sure isnt going to make them any stronger. I just dont think I could in good conscience install welded cams in a Ferrari and be able to sleep at night. Thats the whole reason Ferrari chose to cut them from solid billets in the first place.

And yes, I will stand by what I said. Those cams will make any late model carburated US spec car develop over 30 HP more. The only single thing really different between a late 1978-1980 US spec car, and an early 1975-1977 US spec car, are those cams. The early US carbed cars made 240 HP (Carabou dynoed one at a solid 235 HP, so that may be more accurate) , the late US carbed cars made 205 HP (most dyno numbers are a bit under that number), and its the cams that zapped the power. Just time the ignition simularly, and jet it right, and your off. Of course losing the cats wont hurt any either, along with gutting the airbox, blah blah blah. But thats why there are so many threads of people asking about early carb cams, because they make power.

Will you "feel" 35 HP? If your car weighs 2950 pounds, at 205 HP, you have 14.39 pounds per HP. At 235 HP, you have 12.53 pounds per HP. So, swapping for early cams is about the equivalent of losing 381 pounds. There aint enough crap to strip out of a 308 to lose that much weight, not and still like driving it. The tire and tools sure wont make a dent in that number.

 

2 things. 1st, the ferrari cranks are billet, I don't think the cams are though. 2nd, while the aircraft industry doesn't allow welding, well almost anything because it simply requires too much testing to certify and know it was done right, it's quite common in the car world. I've used welded cams in the past and will almost certainly be fitting a set to my 308. The problem is never breaking, it's keeping the cams straight through the weld process (or being able to get it straight after) and the hardness of the lobes. If the welding isn't done right, the cam can come out wrapped or the lobes wear excessively fast. Web seems to do a good job being able to deliver good cams, but you pay for it.

It's something like $600 per cam for a 2v and $1000 for a 4v engine to have them welded and reground to any profile you choose. On a 2v, all 4 cams need to be done, but on a 4v, the stock exhausts are actually fine, so just the intakes need help. So, $2000-$2400 to do the job. If the engine is all stock, the early 2v grind is a good choice and if the cams can be had for $400 each, I'd go with the OEM cams, much over that I'd choose to regrind with a more modern profile.

 

Art,
My buddy is FAA (unlimited)..... he can weld up a Cessna Cam,,, you know, Argon hot box, spray transfer ,,,, etc. But, why would you go to all that trouble for an inferrior product.? So iksn-a on the cam welding-a....


But anyhoo, DAN,,, It's your lucky day!
Those cams are worth about 500.00 USA each,,,

(or,,, $ 999.99 each, on Ebay.)

 

I havent dissed you at every chance, there have been many and I havent bothered. The engine that was dynoed at 235HP was in euro form (meaning cams), it was fresh and tweeked on an engine dyno not just a set of US spec cams thrown in. The US spec car doesnt make 240HP nor does the Euro that has a claimed rating of 255hp. So, that arguement is useless because you are basing your gains on claimed numbers not fact. Bottom line is a 2.9 liter engine with 8.8:1 pistons will not produce a 30HP gain with a simple cam swap, especially a factory US spec cam. If thats the case the P6 cams you were jerking off over should produce a 60+Hp gain but we all know that aint gonna happen on a stock engine which is what this discussion is all about. You can dream all you want and spread misinformation based on jet engines at a ferrari site because the connection between the 2 is so apparent. My information is based on fact and common sense and is put out there to not misguide but help and I have a good bassis for my knowledge. I wont bother you anymore nor will I help because its a waste of time.

 

that's all true, but the 205 car don't make 205 either, so I think it is apples to apples comparing the factory hp claims and the parts they used to do it.

A proper 3.0l with with 8.8Cr and a 7700 redline should easily clear 320hp and 350-360 is possible, so looking for 240 (or more probably 230) is not unrealistic.


....we need someone with a 78-79 to buy these cams and put them in, so who's going to do it? (and before/after dyno runs too )

 

This does not even warrant a comment.


However, quoting phony prices to the community at large that you cant back up is another thing altogether. You claimed you could get a brand new complete set of cams for $1340, and you used that phony and unrealistic price to try and set the value of that guys P6 cams who lives in S Africa, making out that his old worthless POS cams wernt worth anywhere near as much as the phony price you quoted. I called you on it, that the price you quoted does NOT include the blanks, at $400 each, and you stood by your claim and never answered, because you cant back it up.

I dont know what your deal is, but I dont operate like that, Paul. While I dont neccesarily like the high costs of these cars anymore than anyone else, I dont like seeing people taken advantage of either. The guy simply wanted a realistic idea of his parts value, and your obviously biased in seeing he gets next to nothing, and I dont think that is fair. While some have no issues with aftermarket parts, others are almost religious at having major engine parts be OEM, and are willing to pay to have those kinds of parts. So while Ferrari cams may be worthless POS junk to you, not everyone agrees with you.

If I were to sell a set that I have that were in good condition, I would put them on eBay and start at $2k with no reserve and run it for 10 days and see what happens. You can always lower it down later on if they dont move, or hang onto them until a later time. Let the market tell you what they will bear. Spring and fall might be better times to sell that kind of stuff though. By early summer everyone who wants to run usually is, and by fall, anyone looking to upgrade gets busy because winter will have the car down. Toss a coin.

 

I've got 3 of the 4 cams already, you guys contribute the 4th cam (or have WEB weld my 4V cam into a 2V!) and I'll provide all the info !

 

I am in total agreement with Newman regarding the early cams. THere is undoubtedly NOT 30bhp hiding in the early cams. If I had to venture a guess, I would say 10 bhp might be in them, and that is hardly worth their high price tag IMO. Furthermore, Carobu's Euro engine they rebuilt got jsut a shade under 235 at the flywheel. THat is in EUro trim, and tweaked on a dyno for optimum performance. I would say the real BHP output for an early carb'd 308 is more like 220bhp on a good day rather than the 240bhp they quoted.