IT/Network guys: question for you

Coming from someone who just exited the IT industry and have been in it for many years, I can say this: experience > certifications. I'm not a fan of certs.

If you want to be more marketable, go for the CCNA, but keep in mind, it is just an entryway into the Cisco world. The A+/Network+ - skip them. MCSE? MS will be changing those for Vista and Longhorn soon, so sign up for the beta tests when they come out. You will just need to study the resource kits and work with the betas as much as you can.

Before you do any of that, figure out just what you want to do in IT - do you want to do consulting, a lot of travel, a lot of hours away from home working on various projects putting out other people's fires? It might be a few years out before you can do that, but try to think about what you can see yourself doing and then figure out just what you will need to get there.

Best of luck.

 

12 years in the field here. My best advice -- don't do this. Seriously.

If you insist on getting into the field, then focus on the MS certs and CCNA, but don't expect them to do a whole lot for you. Best bet on trends -- virtualization, middleware development, business intelligence reporting, etc.

 

My perspective is a bit different. I changed careers and got into IT three years ago, after spending most of my life playing with computers as a hobby. I completed my MCSA (which is the "lite" version of MCSE) before ever working in the field, then took an entry-level position to get some experience with Cisco products. I learn quickly and in very short order got both my CCNA and CCNP.

Without question, those certs helped me get interviews that I wouldn't have otherwise. I suspect in a tech firms, they mean very little. However there are plenty of businesses out there that need IT people where those interviewing and hiring don't know a whole lot about IT. The certs can help in those situations.

I completely agree however you need to decide where your interests lie and proceed from there. I wanted a job where I had my hands in a LOT of stuff; servers, network, infrastructure, policies, budgeting, etc. and managed to find exactly that. And I know for a fact that without the certs I would never have gotten the interview.

 

I thought CCNA is a requirement for IT jobs...that test sucked!(the first time anyway).

 

i think they're important...or, atleast, businesses feel that they are.

they're good because it requires hands-on knowledge to pass the test(s), which is better than conceptual knowledge and theory that you get from traditional education.

i have a B.S. CIS and soon an MBA in InfoSec, but for some reason, businesses tend to require the certs over an education.

so this summer, i'll work on completing my MCSA and start studying for my CISSP, CEH, and TICSA.

i'm glad i did my MBA because it helped me figure out WHERE in the IT field I want to go...when i finished my B.S., i didnt know what area of IT I wanted to go into -- there's so many areas, and it's impossible to be an expert at them all. I now know that I want to go into InfoSec and Assurance, and eventually, if not sooner, have my own Consulting firm for InfoSecurity -- specializing in things like SOX and HIPAA compliance.

 

I agree with Randy and Tillman.

The certs are only going to separate you from the half that don't have them when applying for a job. The classroom environment is the thing that resembles the corporate world and industry the least. That's right, the least.

I'm reviewing a dozen resume's a day for two customer service reps to answer phones all day and most of the applicants have their A+, MCP, MCSE, CCNA, and many graduated from a tech vocational school. Some are applicants stepping down in responsibility and have greater than 6 years of experience. The IT industry is flooded with people educated by certs with zero experience chasing low end jobs. Certs are devalued compared to 10 years ago.

I have 12 years invested myself. My advice would be to focus less on your certs and more on studying business and specialize within IT. Find out what you would like to do most, security (PCI for example), networking, development, consulting and stick with it. Your talents are based on many other factors besides your certs.

 

As a 10 year veteran of the IT field as both a business owner and employee I can say that certifications mean nothing.

 

If it means anything I agree; but I don't have the experience of the rest of the guys.

I started out doing tech support for my dads office, now I do "consulting" for all the rest of the offices in the bank (big building). All I want in payment is usually in food or discounts on services. It's really nice and I've been able to help everyone out by getting major volume discounts and what not. It's pretty nice to be able to roll out enterprise quality stuff for small / medium offices.

I don't have any certifications. A lot of my cousins have tons, yet they still come to me for help (and I'm glad to give them my advice). Passion is infinitely and ultimately superior than a few pieces of paper.

 

Getting certifications isn't going to count against you, just make sure you have the experience to go a long with it. Who's going to most likely be hired? A guy who spent a year in the IT field or a guy who spent a year getting his certifications but has zero experience? It's a tough call and I don't know the answer, but a guy who has both experience and certs is going to look pretty good.

 

Looking at some of my friends in the field, traditionally speaking, you can only go so far within a company with JUST your certs, and no additional experience/education.

while right now I feel that my degrees may have been a waste, it will definitely help set me apart later on when applying for management positions, though hopefully, it won't end up like that. I hope to have my own consulting firm for infosec after i've accumulated a good amount of experience in different jobs.

 

The correct answer is neither. Experience and certifications reveal nothing about what talents a person has. Sometimes the most productive, happiest and best fitting employees are those that do not have the experience or the certifications because of the contributions their talents make to the organization. When you interview for a job, experiences or certs combined, will not be the golden pass for employment. You will obtain far better results practicing how to interview and communicate your first time out. Check out a book called First, Break All the Rules.

 

Way cool. I am a CISO at a bank in Japan.

i don't believe in Certs but I will be doing my CISSP, CISM, and CISA because, again, it is marketable. It lets the employer know you have the due diligence to sit down and learn something that was challenging and see it through. I won my position with knowledge and not certs but they may have given me 10-20K more if I had them. If you are starting off, I would say get what is marketable right now. I am not a MS fan as I only use linux in everything I do but the MCSE is something that will get you in the door. EVERYONE had some type of windows infrastructure somewhere in their organization. The best way is bootcamps. You get good quality training and hotel parties. lol. Network side you should start with Networking + then move into the Cisco realm. CCNA is good and all, but if you will fo the Cisco route, get your CCIE. In this day and age, everything is so automated that there really is no skill... Security in banks, Follow FSA recommendations, align your policies and procedures with some type of framework, more then likely CobIT4, Have a proper infosec policy in place and matracies on how to test what you have. Also, if I were you, go IT management. Never be a techie for too long or that is all you will ever be. Take something like the PMP or ITIL. These are heavy hitters for IT.

Just my 2 cents

 

Sunny, Randy, and Tillman all give good advice. Experience means much more than certification. If you also have an idea of business analysis and how you can use technology to solve business problems you will do well. I'm in IT for almost 20 years now, I'm pretty sure that all of my certifications have lapsed except for MCP. However, I'll probably get an MCSE in the next couple of years just so my resume looks OK. I work for a consulting firm and some clients are funny about that.

Just keep in mind that in many cases you'll need the certs to make the first cut when HR is looking through resumes. MCSE and CCNA certainly won't hurt. The rest is up to you. Good luck.

 

Find me a job in America. I want to come home. lol

 

right on; yeah im focused on finishing my MCSA [easier], and then start working toward my CISSP. TICSA and CEH would come later, if I decided to.

And the prime reason I went to school was because I wanted to get into Management, and start my own business. I know what you mean about being a techie -- I have friends that went to ITT and other vocational schools out of HS for a few years, and while they have decent positions like SysAdmins or other tech support positions, I don't think they'll be seeing any management positions anytime soon.

Heard about PMP, Didn't know about ITIL, thanks for pointing it out.

 

Some certs do show an aptitude for the theory side of the practise. I have a medium sized network consulting group - and have seen CCNA become significantly tougher to achieve the past few years. CCNP is tougher yet. (I did my CCIE in '96, and still keep it active - so maybe biased?).

I do believe in certs, but certainly not at the expense of experience and attitude. On the Cisco side they show a more well rounded knowledge base than just building VPN tunnels all day, for instance. I value CCNA, CCSP, CCNP, and CCISP. Any of those mixed with a server or systems cert is good. The better the story, the easier it is to justify rates to clients and RFP responses.

For the younger generation without the mainframe style discipline, ITIL awareness is of value.

I'd take an enthusiastic CCNP over 95% of the CCIE's any day.

What does your home lab look like (great interview question), would you do this stuff for "fun" on a weekend instead of grabbing a movie and a beer? That's what it takes to succeed in the early days.

 

I interviewed once at a Fortune 100 company with a guy who asked me to give an example of how dedicated I am to software engineering. I explained to him that I've stayed in computer labs until 2-3am while working on school projects plenty of times.

He then told me that he's been at work from Monday until Friday straight through in the past. He went home to shower once or twice and went right back to work.

After hearing that, I didn't want the job. I'm all for working hard, but I don't want to live at work.

They didn't end up hiring me (and I wouldn't have taken it anyway). The interview was for someone with 8-10 years of full-time experience. They didn't even offer me a lower position. A few months later I had another interview - same company, just a different project. I was hired on at the same 8-10 year experience level (I had about 2 at that time) that I had interviewed for just a few months prior.

And I don't live at work.

As for the original question - in my opinion, I think education and experience far outweigh certifications. I've never had a certification and I'm doing just fine.

 

I knew a guy like that too, he put on about 40 lbs at the time I was working with him, drank at least a cup of coffee per hour everyday, and had a lot of health and marital problems. I think some people assume that techies love to work 24/7 which is not the case. Personally I have a family and there are more important things in life than work. Sure I've pulled some long hours back when I used to work as a sys admin, but I wasn't at work if I didn't have to be. And yes I like to tinker on the weekends too but I do other things too. I guess this is why I'm getting my MBA (with IT emphasis) right now, I want to eventually move away from being a techie and more into a management position in a couple of years.

 

I'm far from believing everyone needs to be a 150 hr workweek - that's insane, destructive, abusive, and did I say short-sighted? The M-F guys manager should be demoted for not being able to manage a paper bag. But at the same time, if there's not the natural curiosity and interest in how this stuff works - then what's the point. Work, like life, goes in cycles. sometimes there's 20hr weeks of productive work, other times there's a few bursts required of longer days. If it's a chore to stay an extra hour, then what's the point. Starting off in IT takes longer hours to get ahead of the masses and to learn one skill in depth.

I have non-certified people working with us as well - and many (most?) successful tech's are uncertified.

The point, though, is starting off a career - certification does help. If you have a CCNP cert, a hint of people skills, and a great attitude; I want to talk with you. It simplifies conversations

 

That was prolly Microsoft lol

 

Nope. One of the defense contractors. Although I could see a company like MS doing the same thing.

 

Ok, my background:

24 years of IT experience, 17 of it in Mainframes, 7 of it in PC Support.

When a company is looking at resumes', they need SOMETHING to help narrow down the field, so TODAY, a lot of them are 'requiring' certification.
I know this because I am living proof of it. The company I went to work for in January 06 folded in June 06, and I've been doing Temp IT jobs - Mainframe-side - since then.
In the meantime, as we grow into less and less mainframes, I SEE people that want Certifications - and a lot of them just as a means to separate people, so they can look at 100 resumes' instead of 300.

An A+ may mean nothing to some of you, but it's being called for more and more - I Know - I see it every day when job searching. A year ago Certification in the PC Support area wasn't very prevalent, maybe 10% TOPS, but today, I'd say 50% of the jobs I see require it.

Certification MAY get you in the door, and THEN you better be able to back up what you say.

I now see IT as an area where, if you want to stay employed 'forever', then you better plan on going to school 'forever', and get Certification in different areas every 2 years.
Companies change - their needs change - it appears companies are less loyal to long-time workers - they don't want to wait for John or Bob or Linda in IT to become an expert in Java or SQL, it's easier to get rid of them and get someone straight out of school that can hit the ground running.

I see this EVERY DAY.

Get all the Certs you can, and USE THEM.

 

I have never see ANY defense contractor in IT want to hire someone that was not ex-military WITH a current top-secret clearence. Around here, NONE of them will talk to you unless you have current security clearences, Sterling, Northrop Grumman, and a few others.

 

good to hear