348 engine problem need the 348 guru's

I was driving my 348 spider a year ago April and felt a little skip or something so I thought it was due to going over uneven pavement thus causing the wheels to spin a little. Well another 200 yards or so down the road while going through a left hand turn at ~40 or 50mph there was a loss of power and I heard a loud noise in the back, so I pulled it over at the first oppurtunity which was about 150 yards further down the road. At first I thought the belt let go and I feared that the engine must be wasted. I was always told if the belt breaks the valves etc get wasted. So after waiting on the side of the road for hours the tow truck finally arrived. I had it towed to a reputable independent shop. The guy gave it a crank to hear the engine and ruled out a belt breaking. He thought it was an oil issue as nothing was registering on the dip stick. I found that hard to believe as the oil was changed was then 3,000 miles ago. I left him the car to investigate. He followed up stating that when he drained the oil he got ~8 quarts out with metal in it (shavings) so he did not think the issue was caused by a lack of oil. I knew the car burned a little oil but I never had white smoke when starting, nor did I ever get oil etc on a white cloth when I held it to the exhaust. So being low really puzzled me. My only thought was that the shop that had been changing my oil for some time must have shorted me. FYI the shop doing the oil changes is different then the shop assessing the engine problem. The shop determined that I spun a bearing and said it might have been caused by a brief starvation of oil, possibly while I was going through that turn the oil shifted to one side causing the starvation. So the crankshaft had a minor score on it which the shop polished and then replaced all of bearings and journals etc and also flushed the oil system. They said it sounded fine. They did not think it had upper end damage like with the camshafts etc. They said it sounded fine but in their defense they said they could not guarantee the repair. I had another mechanic take a listen and a couple of other mechanically inclined people listen to it and they said it seemed fine. So by the time I got the car back it was many months later. So in Oct I put it away for the winter with out ever driving it.

Well this past Jan I pulled it out had the oil changed in the storage place and took it for a drive. About 35 miles into the drive the engine started sounding like crap and got sluggish. So I figured the engine is toast and so I again tucked it away in storage until I had the time and mental strength to deal with a broken Ferrari. Well here I am now with the time and psychological strength to tackel this issue. I am wondering could the lower end problem from a year ago April have been more extensive causing upper end damage based on what I conveyed to you guys? Now I know the info provided is short in substance and does not give you a lot to go on but I would appreciate any insight. I have read about the other guys who have had 348 engine implusions in recent time and I have always felt their pain.
Lastly if the entire engine is wasted what is a realistic $ figure to fix it at an independent at $75 per hour ?

 

There's so much to address here!

First, did you see a drop in the oil pressure gauge reading, or get an oil pressure warning light when the initial problem occured? If it really "spun a bearing" you should have seen something, and heard "knockknockknockknock". I wouldn't think the engine could starve for oil if it really had 8 quarts in it, and the fact that no oil was showing on the dipstick is immaterial if it wasn't checked with the proper procedure (engine warm, just shut off). Starvation from going through a turn??? On a dry sump engine?

Did you see the old bearing (the one that "spun")?

They replaced all of the crank bearings? Oversize? Standard?

They didn't pull the cams to check the cam journals?

Did you have normal oil pressure readings before your latest problem?

Based on what you have described, this sounds kinda funky.

 

It all sounds wrong. I haven't even heard of someone doing a bottom-end rebuild without at least checking the top end!



It's generally cheaper to part out and/or sell whole your broken 348 motor (and simply buy a working one already intact) than to pay to have someone rebuild her.


But that being said, you need proper diagnosis first.

 

Was the chain driving the oil pump ever replaced in the car? Some of the cars had a problem with this-I think it was a warranty repair. I have a motor if you need one.

 

Still scratching my head as well.

 

I can not say if that chain was ever replaced. Heck I did not even know there was an chain driving anything. None of the records I have from the Ferrari dealer I purchaed it from indicate that the part was changed.

If I recall correctly you sent me a PM about that engine you had for sale. I see it was sold. I thought about it but was no where near ready to deal with the issue.

 

Well,

You could ship the whole car to Plugzit or me and the three stooges will put Bruce's rebuilt motor in and test it then ship it back or you come to Cali to drive it back. It really isn't that hard but you may need to pay bruce for the motor, leave the core, plus a bit for Bruce's labor and to feed the Stooges which could cost more than Bruce's labor. Other than that we work for free. How's that for a deal?

 

That sounds like a great idea FBB! I wish I was there to wrench with you guys!!

 

I will volunteer my labor for a "breakfast at Joes" !!

Yeah.............. Pap you should be hanging with the bro's !!!

 

Hey pap you are always welcome to join us. The more guys we have the quicker the job gets done. How about a So Cal vacation? Anyway, I don't think you can find a better bunch of 348 mechanics than the stooges. How could anyone go wrong? I'll voluteer my garage, lift and tools. I bet we can have the engine in and out in a weekend easy. Shoot...I'm so confident that if CTM stays at the seasprite motel right on the beach he can come help too and drive the car home on Sunday!

 

Sh*t yeah man! Many hands make light work. You bet your ass you guys could get the job done in a weekend!! I am coming over to LA in September and I will catch up with you stooges for a beer or 10!!

 

I'd drive mine down for the weekend and contribute free labor. Would like to meet the stooges one of these days.

 

OK guys, what's your opinion? Is there ANY possibility that you could spin a rod bearing without hearing it knock? Is there ANY possibility that you could spin a rod bearing without a major, significant drop in the oil pressure reading?

I am confused by your wording, CTM. I asked if you saw the old bearing - you responded that "it was shown to me along with the journal. It was burnt and the journal was broken". The journal is the polished part of the crankshaft that the bearing rides upon. By the journal, do you mean the cap for the connecting rod? If the bearing spun, it almost certainly wasted the connecting rod and its cap. You MIGHT be able to polish a light score off the journal (very, very edgy), but there ain't no way you're going to replace a connecting rod from below - it's attached to the piston. Impossible.

I'm still confused as well by your description of "a little skip" and "a loss of power". These aren't really symptoms of a problem with a bottom end bearing. Something fishy about this deal.

 

Great idea. I wish my trip to the meet the stooges was as short as yours!

 

Hard to say man. Usually big ends knock LOUD, but you never know in this case. Maybe he couldnt hear it?? Anything is possible I suppose.

 

There you got it CTM Free labor from the brotherhood! PAP CTM has waited a year September would be just fine by me. Matertech you are welcome too. How could CTM pass up this deal?

Anyway CTM does not sound to engine savy but he would need to start at basic diagnostics like leakdown, pull valve covers for minimal topend inspection and maybe drop the sump pan. If he could do that he could change the motor himself. So unless a brother could go over and see him to get more info I think the problem sounds like it stmes from the original problem as in never being really fixed. We need more details:

1) does it start?
2)does it idle? idle quality
3) does it rev? rev quality
4) does it drive? Where is power loss, offline, mid range, hi rpm?
5) strange noises under any of these conditions?
6) do all guages read normal? oil pressure specifically

Well thats a start.

 

Sounds like a plan FBB!!

 

Sorry for not writing back but time was the issue coupled with no internet access at home and the fact I had to digest the offer you guys made.

So lets see a group of guys whom I never met who live on the opposite coast who are clearly Ferrai nuts offer to fix my busted Ferrari at virtually no cost to me (shipping, engine, food and some labor) ONLY ON FERRARI CHAT COULD SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPEN. Well it is a truley amazing offer, seriously!!! Now I would be nuts not to jump on it but I want to speak with Bruce to learn more about the engine he has for sale etc and figure out what my options are. The more I learn about the costs of rebuilding my engine (if needed) makes it the last option. It seems the only real viable solution for me is going to be dump it as is and move on or go with a used engine as you guys suggest.
I want to take a moment to share what was written on the receipt "exactly" what was wrtitten from when I had the car fixed last year.

Client says while driving car engine developed loud knock, towed car to shop, checked oil level -ok-. Checked oil pressure -ok- Noise is coming from inside oil pan, Removed oil pan found both front connector bearing spun. Recommend engine rebuild-not able to determine at this time reason for bearing failure-Suspect either over rev or lack of oil pressure-need to disassemble engine to evalute damage and casue of failure.
(now I never said loud knock! I said a single loud noise like something breaking, a bang and that I thought it was the belt)

More from receipt:
Customer declined engine rebuild and opted to replace all connecting rod bearings only. Customer is aware there is absolutely no warranty on repair, customer is also aware that this may happen again.
(ok he warned me but he also said he did not think a total rebiuld was neccessary as he had no idea if there was upper engine damage but that he did not think so. He did say the crank shaft had a scor on it that was a little deeper then he had hoped and that it could not be completely polished out. He said he would lean toward machining the crank shaft and installing oversize bearing to be sure, but said he did not know if that was neccessary.

Last part on receipt:
Removed oil tank and oil cooler and cleaned as best as possible and reinstalled. Replaced all rod bearings, refilled crank case with Mobil 1 synethetic oil and new oil filter, test drove-ok-engine is quiet for now.

So as you know I am not a technically savy guy when it comes to engines and I walked out of his shop understanding it could be fixed or maybe it was not fixed. Obviously it was the latter. So what do you think now based on what was on the receipt.

 

Well, that tells me that they replaced the big end bearings and cleaned the oil tank and cooler as best they possibly could. They could not remove scor mark from crank and recommended crank machine ect.....ect......
They obviously didnt find the cause of this spun bearing and it has happenend again mate. It could have a partially blocked oil gallery to those rod bearings, causing this failure. If you put new bearings in it again, it will probably do the same thing. I think its time to remove engine and pull apart to find out whats going in there man.

 

Forget the friggin' engine. This is a great movie script. Does John Cusack look like you?

 

Hmm, I wonder if you broke a valve spring or threw a shim or two. The crack you hear and the spun bearing might have resulted from valve impact on piston (or more). It sounds as though there may be an oiling issue, as if there's a circulation problem occuring intermittantly. I had a Vette do this once. It ran fine then didn't. It clunked, but it was upper end not lower. It was hard to tell where the noice came from, however.

Now, I wonder what you are not telling us. When did you or someone else over-rev the motor? Was it an errant downshift? P

I'm in for the cross country diagnotic and repair BTW. Let me know guys and I'll bring beer. FBB's house is better due to his unbelievable equipment.

 

If the car makes it to LA for rehab I'll lend a hand as well. Gotta do something with my time.... I might even learn something!

 

There are several things here that don't make sense to me. But for now...

I wonder if there could be a restriction in the oil flow to the pressure pump in the sump. In a case like that, perhaps you could have good PRESSURE (at least off and on) but low VOLUME.

Has anyone looked at the condition of the flexible oil hose from the sump tank to the engine? I wonder if it's possible that this hose is kinked, or has an internal breakdown that keeps the pump from drawing the oil back into the engine at full flow rate.

I simply don't understand how, if the engine had TWO faulty rod bearings on the front crankpin, it could still be reported that the engine had good oil pressure readings.

 

Thats why you gotta love the 348 Brotherhood!!
Count me in too, if this happens when Im there.