TonyH from SW London - very kindly posted this in the vintage section:...
TonyH from SW London - very kindly posted this in the vintage section: http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article2004580.ece Thanks Tony. PS Good luck with things in the UK just now. I am minded to agree with Clarkson on the importance of soul in a Ferrari. I am not criticising modern ferraris. However, I am not interested in transportation, even very quick transportation - whereas I am enthralled, fascinated, inspired even joyful - in a prancing horse - which has soul, beauty, visceral rapture etc.... While I have been (from my modest perspective) fortunate to have been in several Ferraris, I would like to ask current V12 owners what they think of the level of intimacy, soul, and the other points Clarkson makes in comparing the older v12's to modern ferraris... I don't know how to do this but I wonder if a poll was offered would V12 owners prefer a 250SWB or a 599, or a 275GTB4 over or a 550. If you compare your favourite vintage Ferrari to your favourite modern one which one would you choose? The two questions inherent within my question are - do owners feel we have reached a point where there is enough power, speed, acceleration, handling ability (as Ferrari is clearly streets ahead (no pun intended) in that regard)? - do owners expereince enough soul in the modern cars or would they like more soul/passion/intimacy (whatever way one might describe it) in exchange for perhaps less focus upon increasing raw performance? Many thanks for your thoughts - as, de facto, you determine what they create in Italy... best regards,
So does Clarkson miss manual typewriters and black and white TV? I own cars from the 50s and 60s, and they are wonderful. But so is the 599, which comes alive above 4,000 rpm; driven with the windows down, on a winding road, in race mode, it offers a fantastic driving experience. Does soul mean carbs and skinny tires and a big wooden steering wheel and ineffective brakes? Does it mean "designed while Enzo was alive?" I wish modern cars were smaller and lighter. I don't need all the creature comforts offered in today's cars. I really liked the Challenge Stradale, and I love my F40. Does that mean I like passion, or just a very uncomfortable driving experience?
In my opinion, YES!!!!!!!! I couldn't create a better definition if I tried for a week. Tom Kizer 1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293
So what do you use for transportation? While we all love the thought of a 250SWB on a B road on a sunny afternoon, I shudder at the thought of a 250SWB in August traffic not moving 1 cm with temperature at 35. Modern Ferraris are transportation! Fantastic transportation. 599 is a joy as transportation and in that respect it has more soul than any other form of transportation I have a Daytona and I have a 599. When looking at the 2 and deciding which to drive for the day, it is not a case of assessing their relative intimacy and soul, it is a case of matching the weapon with the mission. If the mission involves a good stretch of road with reasonably sweeping corners and a destination with reasonable parking, the Daytona is in the running. Anything else the 599 wins With all due respect this is a silly question. We are all romantics and would choose the classic. Not to mention the difference in value and investment potential which, of course, such a banal consideration would never cross anyone's mind... But in the real world most people are constrained by reality! A 250SWB is 7 times as expensive as a 599. A 599 can be used for a variety of purposes in the real world and a 250SWB is rather limited. In the real world a 250SWB owner has a 599 if he wants one The 599 is already too fast for the daily world. The acceleration is blinding. The top speed is staggering. My car cruises easily at 330kph. I shift into 6th gear at 290kph. That is mad. Never before has a mass market car offered this level of performance and usability. My wife has driven the 599 at 270 in the rain with no problem and she is an inexperienced driver. Try that in an F40. But you get used to other worldly performance and want more! Now a 550/575 is a classic car. One day not too far off the 599 will be too The entire premise of this question is deeply flawed IMVHO. Soul/passion/intimacy are in no way mutually exclusive of raw performance. The 599 has both. I am hoping that the 430 LP or Scuderia will have both in the same way that the CS does. I went to the 60th anniversary event at Maranello. I heard there were 1,500 Ferraris of every description. When I was walking around looking at so many different cars with owners from everywhere, soul/passion/intimacy is with the owner. I saw a family in a 456 GTA and they were so happy together celebrating the event. Their car sounded great when it fired up and they all smiled. Yet if that 456 GTA was sitting in a garage unloved, just a slab of metal Do you really think this is true? The Ferrari world is so diverse that broad sweeping generalities (soul/intimacy/passion vs raw performance) are of no use whatsoever to the designers of the next generation. I spent Saturday evening in Shanghai with some FXX owners and the head of the engineering team for the 360/Enzo/MC12/FXX and the discussions were not along these lines at all. Ferrari lives in a competitive world. The 997 GT3RS is breathtaking and it has everything in the same way as the 599. In fact when I got my RS I drove it everyday for a month and ignored my 599. The Lambo products are getting better and better and many CS owners are giving the Super Leggara a try. Ferrari has to face the technical benchmarks of competitors - even as stupid ones as America's red light fixation 0-60. A more meaningless measure I am hard pressed to imagine. A real car needs 2 wheel drive at the rear and that will make it inherently more limited against a 4 wheel drive car in this measure. Ferrari also needs unit volume of a certain size to support R&D so it must meet competition in various areas
Mostly a father and son team with a Scottish accent, a vintage American and the youngest FXX owner who had a bit of a bender on Saturday night but still drove well on Sunday. We should change his name from RTB to James Hunt
DM18 - Thanks for your reply - very reassuring... the choices of which to drive must be most agreeable. I drive an S class MB, one of my favourite cars; a keeper. I liked the W140, but while better in many ways, I did not feel it had the same quality of experience. It is a subtle point which i find difficult to convey in words. After the W140 I found aspects less appealing. So I gradually replaced many systems upon my W126 over a 2 year period. "The entire premise of this question is deeply flawed IMVHO. Soul/passion/intimacy are in no way mutually exclusive of raw performance." I would certainly agree, not "mutually" exclusive. I think perhaps what Clarkson was getting at was done in his normal provocative manner. The point, I probably did not convey well, was intended as a little more subtle - can one enjoy more or find more satisfying a car with accessible limits (Dino?) on modern roads / police than more modern ferraris. Your answers clearly suggest it is not a concern and that ferrari has managed to produce, for example, in the 599 almost everything... (British police's response not withstanding.) Thanks. Re: the owner's deciding what Ferrai make "Do you really think this is true?" The Ferrari world is so diverse that broad sweeping generalities (soul/intimacy/passion vs raw performance) are of no use whatsoever to the designers of the next generation. I spent Saturday evening in Shanghai with some FXX owners and the head of the engineering team for the 360/Enzo/MC12/FXX and the discussions were not along these lines at all. Ferrari lives in a competitive world. The 997 GT3RS is breathtaking and it has everything in the same way as the 599. In fact when I got my RS I drove it everyday for a month and ignored my 599. The Lambo products are getting better and better and many CS owners are giving the Super Leggara a try. Ferrari has to face the technical benchmarks of competitors - even as stupid ones as America's red light fixation 0-60. A more meaningless measure I am hard pressed to imagine." Yes, the 0 - 60 is absurd. Your comments and experience are very interesting. I do think ferrari have to pay attention to the market, which is what I meant by owners in effect determine, or perhaps better influence what Ferrari make. Although your comments indicate competition both against Ferrari's and at racing level make real sense, expanding my suggestion Drawing on that, I have heard stories of Enzo Ferrari de facto, enjoying going against what some owners thought. Although, the person who made one such call to him may have a been a horse's a**. My uncle, who knew the caller, was fortunate to own 250Swb, daytona, dino and other perhaps less significant F's never made such a persistent series of calls to receive that response. He kept his comments regarding the daytona clutch closer to his chest. All a privilege to grow up around. My only question - I'm slightly hesitant to offer - but essentially runs along the lines of do you think for example a dino replacement would also be "too fast" or "mad". I in no way doubt, the Lambos are getting better and better but I doubt I would ever crave owning one on purely aesthetic basis... but something as beautiful as a Dino, or even a 328 with perhaps limits accessible at speeds that would not risk my licence, would be lovely - so do you think there would ever be a market for that, for e.g. a Dino marque with less performance...? Thanks again for your detailed reply. Enjoyable regards,
Truman Bond I completely agree with you. I want to keep my licence too and none of the "too fast" or "mad" cars are conducive to this. The dilemna is that the 599 is perfectly agreeable at 70kph going around a corner but when driving it you are fully aware that it is capable of so much more that the temptation is overwhelming and an unhappy ending with a laser is inevitable. I don't know what the answer is. Ferrari have done their part - a mild mannered split personality monster but is that what we really need? Would I be happy with a simple Ferrari that was more one-dimensional? Maybe?
You were our hero before Saturday night but you elevated yourself to Rock God after. Our CPO was speechless and that is not easy my friend
DM 18 - Perfectly stated! Although the premise of this thread may have seemed off the mark, especially after your thoughtful comments, it is relevant however. As the owner of a Vintage Ferrari I often hear people saying simliar things. Things like ' the older cars have soul, newer cars have speed.' This sort of comment is not at all uncommon in the reverse either - eg. owners of newer Ferraris often comment 'why would anyone want anything so old and slow, etc...?' For me - the 599 is a masterpiece. And the 430 is so good that it has overshadowed the icon that preceeded it. This is some accomplishment. What other car company has done that recently or repeatably? If I have a gripe with the new cars, it's that they are too big. I wish that the 430 was the size of a 355 and wieghed less..... Now that would be a car! Of course the right answer to these questions of soul is personal. There is no one answer. Each person's response is his or her own. Damn, there's plenty of soul in all of these cars! And what Jon
DM 18 - Perfectly stated! Although the premise of this thread may have seemed off the mark, especially after your thoughtful comments, it is relevant however. As the owner of a Vintage Ferrari I often hear people saying simliar things. Things like ' the older cars have soul, newer cars have speed.' This sort of comment is not at all uncommon in the reverse either - eg. owners of newer Ferraris often comment 'why would anyone want anything so old and slow, etc...?' For me - the 599 is a masterpiece. And the 430 is so good that it has overshadowed the icon that preceeded it. This is some accomplishment. What other car company has done that recently or repeatably? If I have a gripe with the new cars, it's that they are too big. I wish that the 430 was the size of a 355 and weighed less..... Now that would be a car! Of course the right answer to these questions of soul is personal. There is no one answer. Each person's response is his or her own. Damn, there's plenty of soul in all of these cars! Jon
Jon you are spot on. When I first got my 997 GT3 RS the thing that most struck me was how small the car is compared with the 599. I loved the 355. Everytime I sold mine, I missed it so much that I bought another one. That is why I keep a 348 GTC even though everyone laughs at my cheesegraters. The car is small, noisy and raucous. The 430 feels huge and that is a shame for a boulevard cruiser. Especially the Spider
Am I right that I heard Ferrari are considering heading in the smaller direction as part of environmental considerations?
I don't know but I hope so. I have read with much admiration your posts in other threads and it is clear that you are thinking in many worthwhile directions. Have you read the announcement of the new 997 GT2? It is filled with enviro speak - some of it a bit conflicted I must say! I think Porsche gets it and maybe they will be the first to produce a green sports car - definitely not the 997 GT2. I would definitely be interested in a green sports car
Thank you DM 18. I have heard Porsche are arguably ahead of the curve, or perhaps better along the curve - as I have little first hand knowledge of competitors to compare to. I had the good fortune to make a presentation to PCNA regarding my start-up, and received a warm reception. While there - and this was several years ago - I heard talk of their introducing hybrids. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is fairly common knowledge that they are on that track. I have not heard anything about the 997 as I have not followed it - please do fill me in. There is one sure fire way you can have a 599 that is environmentally friendly by being carbon neutral.... several companies offer the service, but it is still conflicted in that it addresses the sympton and not the cause - but come on, it's a ferrari!
The 599 is a Tech. Marvel. It is a suburb car and it is a little on the large side. The old cars do have some magic to their styling both inside and outside. They were not designed in the wind tunnel. Ferrari is moving with the times. I don't want an old car of any brand. I want to drive it and not be sending it to the shop and going to visit it there.
You've only hinted at the reason why my three vintage Ferarri/Maseratis egg me on for a modern one; Brakes and tires When driving both vintage and modern in a spirited fashion, they all can accelerate nicely, but cornering and stopping can be the deciding difference. If you're only looking for eye candy garage queens, then the classics fulfill that nicely.
The reason vintage cars have more soul is because they were made with natural materials and so they have a different feel to them. Modern cars are made with numerous synthetic materials. Sure they drive better, but they just don't feel like vintage cars.
that is a very interesting point - I had not thought of that. But when I bought my MB - I looked at the new s class, and even funds aside I preferred the W126 as it did not feel plastic. Another example, is the 308 vs 328 - I just love the toggles... I think you could be onto something there. Another thought, was when I was in a 430 it also felt like that. Anyway, I'm ducking in csse I get flamed - but I think there are important reasons why what you say makes profound sense, npt least of which is ED...
