McLaren suspends key technical employee in ferrari probe

As someone else pointed out on another thread covering this same topic:

Hasn't McL made changes to their cars since receiving the information? It is hard to prove one way or another.

Legally, I don't think it matters. If someone has stolen property, you don't have to prove that he used the property or benefitted by having the property, you just have to prove that he has possession of the stolen property. It appears as though SF can prove that Coughlan was in possession of 700 documents which Bernie describes as "drawings".

We have no proof that he paid millions of pounds for the property. That doesn't matter either. If you are in possession of stolen property and you know it's not yours you are guilty.

What courts will be used? Italy? Guilty. Britain? Maybe innocent? I would think SF would press charges in Italy. Both the stealer and the possessor are Brits.

 

Yes, becoming more and more like a Ian Flemming novel by the day. The irony builds as we head to Great Briton in the rain no less. I have visions of shady characters in Barbour rain suits exchanging notes in the muddy parking lots of Silverstone.

Life imitating art.

 

You have to admit that it sure makes F1 interesting!

Here is the latest as I posted on the other thread:

Ferrari tipped off by a 3rd party outside of F1...........

In what could become one of the biggest scandals in recent times within Formula One, the Ferrari team revealed today that they received a tip off from someone outside of the sport regarding the alleged transfer of team information. The following is a press release from the Italian team.

'Ferrari wishes to clarify that the English police have so far not been involved in investigating the theft of technical information.'

'It was brought to Ferrari's attention by a third party outside Formula 1 racing within the last fortnight, that a senior member of the technical staff within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team might be in possession of highly sensitive Ferrari information. ' 'Ferrari reviewed the evidence and consulted London lawyers towards the end of last week.
'

'Ferrari then made an urgent application to the High Court in London on 2 July for the court's assistance.'

'As is usual with this kind of court order, Ferrari is currently prevented by the court from making any public statement about the information that it gained as a result of serving the court order.'

'At the same time, an investigation is being carried out into the same subject by the Modena Court, therefore no further comment will be forthcoming, in order to respect the legal process in both countries.'

E.A.
Source Ferrari

 

The worst thing that could happen to F1 is when they leave this decision to an official court of law: That would mean months if not years to wait for a decision. The 2007 title would get decided in a court WAY after the season.

The FIA has to step in and make a decision regardless.

 

There is no doubt that "IF" Maclaren is found guilty that there have to be severe sanctions otherwise F1 will look like the 3 stooges. If things look like they are going to drag on for even another month, the FIA have to come out and make a ruling now as to what sanctions will take place for Maclaren if they are found guilty as charged. Otherwise we as fans do not know how to interpret any of the upcoming results. Who enjoys watching a race not knowing if the outcome will be upheld or not?

 

This is one way to make folks in the US aware of F1 ! ! forget the racing as for some folks they are funny looking NASCARs -> on with the National Enquirer type of headine scandal stuff . . .


Sure am glad my money is being spent on true racing this weekend and away from this mess. My concern is the width and length of the track for the R10 vs the P2 Porsche Spyders (who this weekend have a competition adjustment of 5% restriction placed on them by IMSA) and will Ferrari beat Porsche on the tight track. Saturday promises to be 2 hrs 45 min of exceptional racing. Additionally, it's the 50th anniversary of Lime Rock Park. GO AUDI #1 and RISI #62...

Carol

 

+1. FIA must step in, and bann the McLaren team,at least until the championship evens...maybe two races with no points for both drivers and constructors will be Fair.

...the solely fact of accepting "officialy" that the Chief Designer was in possesion of sensitive Ferrari Material makes them guilty of not respecting the sporting code...

April was a long way back not to have come forward, and say "fair play, I give the documents back"...

That´s what a gentleman will do...not Lucifer

Did I mentioned I heard RD is lucifer?...and I thought I didnt like the guy!

 

Swiss Blick's Roger Benoit speculates that the contents of the documents must have been electronic data because nothing else (eg. aerodynamics) would be useful to McLaren because of the difference in wheelbase.

http://www.blick.ch/sport/formel1/artikel66329

 

I am not too sure of that Ian, but when the FIA begins allowing bumper-car-racing and requiring chaw-powered engines, thennnnnn maybe

 

Thanks for the translation.

I did learn that Formula 1 in German is Formel 1.

 

This mess is or could spoil a good seasons racing.. so somebody should pay the price for that.

 

The person in the wrong can and usually delays as much as possible. Don't look for anything fast from British courts.

FIA will have to act. Getting them to agree on anything is a miracle.

Note that Ferrari can't say anything because of legal constraints, but that doesn't prevent RD from saying they didn't use the information. (And how does he know that Coughlan didn't change the design based on the Ferrari information?)

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

 

If Ferrari wins the WDC and WCC as a result of this, I think I will manage to get over it. Sure, I like good racing. But winning is better than losing

 

Yes i know it could work out better for the reds, but its better to win on a level playing field.. but like you say winning is better than losing

 

+1

IMO...

One thing that seems irrefutable, maybe not in an English form court of Law, but by the results of the search warrant and the actions of McLaren - Coughlan is guilty of receiving and knowingly retaining stolen goods. IMO, the FIA should act swiftly on this, he has brought a great deal of bad press and attention to Formula 1.

If there is plausible evidence, that Stepney is the source, for criminal action, it may be born out later. However, if it is found, (as has been intimated) that there has also been large unexplainable receipt of £'s into the Stepneys' bank accounts.... the FIA should consider taking immediate and meaningful punitive actions against both the Stepneys and the McLaren team.

Just my opinion....

 

Sadly I think this season is already ruined:

If Ferrari wins because they take away McLaren's points, it is a shallow victory.

If McLaren wins, everybody will say, that's only because they stole the Ferrari design.

Either way, the Championship has been tarnished already. It could only be saved if somebody else (BMW) would win it, but that's not going to happen.

The problem is, that nobody, no FIA, no court, nobody will ever be able to proove once and for all that the McLaren did or did not benefit from the technical details. This is something you just can't proove either way short of a blatant copy of something, which I can't imagine happened. A shadow of a doubt will remain and with it a bad aftertaste in everybody's mouth.

 

Agreed, this is why I believe that swift and meaningful action must be taken by the FIA.

 

You see, I am a much shallower and potentially happier viewer than most. I came into the 2007 season expecting some retribution from last year. That is, a giant butt-whipping by Ferrari coupled with FA's floundering - just desserts for someone who dared to best my favorite team.

But I have found no satisfaction and instead have felt something was simply wrong with the universe. Now I see its potential cause, and I taste the possibility of that retribution. I will blindly assume that the only way anyone could challenge Ferrari was to steal the very information that is the foundation of their success.

And I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try and burst my bubble. I am quite enjoying this; no reason to ruin it for me with talk of honor or logic.

 

Great summarization Andreas - to me a shallow victory is meanginless - out of this entire mess, the one I feel sorry for is Lewis. He's the driver who gets into the car and does his best . . . .(sure some will dispute that comment) . . he provides data on how the car handles but he's not the brains behind the car. I would only hope that his bid for DC is not sacrificed. I would hope that McLaren has done no wrong and the information remained with only one person. (Honda has improved a tad bit too - suppose they're in the loop too??) I think only once in F1 history has there been a manufacturer/driver (perhaps I am think of another series?) who would know the ins and outs of the machine. It's pretty far fetched for BMW to win but that would be wonderful if they did!

Carol

 

I always try to put myself in the other guys shoes. As a Tifosi, what would my reaction be if the show were on the other foot...if a SF employee was found with proprietary McL documents.

I would probably:
be mortified and embarrassed.
ashamed.
feel cheated.
wonder if my team had to cheat to win.
hope that this all was a lie trumped up to embarrass my team.
not be so interested in F1.
hide my F1 apparrel.
start watching ALMS with Carol.

 

i think your wrong.
you have to prove intent - simply saying "they had the info therefore theyre guilty" just doesnt work.

a couple breaks up and one of them sends naked pics of the other to a few mutual aquaintances.
said aquaintances open their post/email etc and see these pictures and are stunned.
should those ppl have the pictures ?
definetely not.
but you cant blame them for having them - eg its not their fault
should they simply destory them as soon as they realise what theyve been sent - well yes, but simple and undeniable human nature means that ppl will look (think rubberneckers looking at car crashes as they drive past)

 

As I stated earlier in another post, this to me looks a lot like 1994 after Imola: Schumacher was winning everything, he was the new boy wonder and rumors were flying about the illegal Bennetton: Illegal fuel, illegal electronics, anything. In the end the FIA couldn't proove anything, but they had to stop this juggernaut from running away with the title. Schumacher scratched the underbody of his Bennetton at Spa and THAT was reason enough to ban him. Hill (how convenient, an English man) caught up in the points and the fans were served a spectacular nail biter finish to the season.

At no point was it Schumacher's fault and whether Benetton really cheated was never clear. Luckily he persevered and did get the title.

 

On my part, honor and logic have everything to do with it.

If Stepney is found to be passing racing team secrets, while being one of their paid members, I find this unacceptable, no matter which team.

I find it unacceptable that Coughlan held onto the discovered documents for 3 months, no matter which team the info came from or what the source or manner in which it came to be in his possession.

If McLaren paid for this info, I of course, find this absolutely unacceptable and probably, the biggest transgression of all.

If (1) Stepney is found to have received unexplainable large monetary transfers, if (2) Stepney is found to be the source of the information at Coughlans abode and (3) Stepney is connected to sabotage of the fuel at Monaco (and I do know this is extrapolating a wee bit), my mind, naturally considers the possibility of McLaren paying Stepney to steal the info, sabotage both the fuel and the wind tunnel.

Call me silly, but there it is.

<flame suit on>

 

...thats what I call a desperate meassure...

just joking, I also watch ALMS and play full tifosi for Rissi-Salo-Melo team.
Any FERRARI at any series is my team.

Forza per tutto Ferrari piloti

 

No way that Coughlan didn't know that what he had was wrong. He's the chief design engineer for MCL for goodness sakes. If it weren't wrong to have the information, why is the dishonarable Mr. Dennis saying that no "other" MCL employee had the information? You can't have it both ways.

While Ferrari data may be analogous to porn in Britain , it is proprietary intellectual property in the USA. Posession of it without permission is against the law. I would wager it's against the law in Britain and Italy too, but I am not certain of that. If it's not, I am certain it will be illegal in Italy by trial time.