My room at my parents house has a Revell F40! Stick that in your 355 pipe and smoke it! Just kidding, its not Revell.
You ask that for the first time at 10:23 and the second time at 11:18, you want to at least give me an hour to answer?? I am a Ferrari fan and a Ferrari owner, which is far more than the majority of McLaren critics here. I respect McLaren as worthy competitors but even moreso I do not allow my support of Ferrari to blind myself of reality nor am I a knee-jerk reactionary like so many of your compatriots here. I am sickened by the comments here that automatically slam the likes of Alonso, Ron Dennis or even JPM simply because they compete with Ferrari. I have made it abundantly clear that my first desire is to see good quality racing, regardless of the teams and McLaren is supplying that in abundance this year. There are many here that automatically hate anyone who challenges Ferrari on the track. I on the other hand respect top quality racing teams and frontline drivers. I don't want a repeat of 2003 even if Ferrari wins, that is boring beyond belief. A hardfought victory is a hell of a lot more satisfying and enjoyable than a cake walk. Furthermore, there is nothing more mundane and boorish than these "Ferrari or bust" types who find fault with every Ferrari competitor but think Ferrari can do no wrong. It is my experience that the vast majority of these types get no closer to Ferrari ownership than the posters on their bedroom walls.
LOL - just had no idea it would take an entire hour to come up with that answer! I agree with the point well made that there has to be valid competition or else this sport is about as exciting as ball room dancing on educational TV. I guess the problem we conspiritorialists have with RD is the arrogance - I just don't like people going into press conferences to tell me how ethical they are.
+1000 My experience- people that do that usually have to be watched very closely. Read: People of the Lie; a Study in Human Evil by Scott Peck, MD.
If they cheated and are found guilty of such they should be punished! And severly! Cheating is like lieing, there is no honor there, quite pathetic actually. Very, Very disapointing.
Thats all well and good, but do you want good racing at the cost of the reputability of the sport. I'm not saying McLaren has done anything wrong, I will wait for the FIA's verdict. However, if McLaren is running Ferrari designs or strategies doesn't that take more away from the sport than good racing can ever replace. If all we care about is good racing then why don't we just let Ferrari and McLaren put out 5 or 6 cars each and do away with the rest of the field....that will certainly make the racing more interesting but it destroys the sport. Or better yet, the FIA could mandate the design of cars to a T so that everyone has to run exactly the same car and the championship comes down to drivers and fuel strategy. That would make for closer and potentially more interesting racing, but what would it do for the sport?
Which is what it looks like is going to happen next year with Dave Richards/Prodrive - Rumour has it that he'll run "Mclaren customer cars". Ferrari then give Spyker their old car (it's obviously legal - Super Aguri did it and we're up to 8.....
For once I'm on your bandwagon for this one. Until they have more evidence and the FIA reaches a decision I don't think we should be calling for anyone's head. It could very well be that the incident is isolated and never made it to the McLaren building or across Dennis' desk and then everyone who is demanding that the team be banned and points docked and blah blah blah will look like idiots. It's fine to speculate on what actually happened, but I think there's a reason the Miranda Rights don't read "guilty until proven innocent".
Sen, I am a motorsports fan. I am a F1 fan. I am also a Ferrari fan. What you perceive in my posted opinions as from someone that would, "automatically hate anyone who challenges Ferrari on the track.", is actually an intolerance for the dishonorable behavior displayed by the involved parties. Because I see the immediate suspension of Coughlan, before it was even announced what he was in possession of, as being suspicious, is not coming from favoring Ferrari, it is from my observations of occurrences and instinct. I said that I felt there were more people within McLaren that knew exactly what he had and that was why he was dissed so quickly. You asserted that it was McLaren, "doing the right thing." My suspicions were born out, by the fact that Neale knew about the documents and as it has been reported, he told Coughlan to destroy them. Even if Neale hadn't known, Coughlan is part of the McLaren team, and as such McLaren has to pay for his transgression. There is no way to prove/disprove the degree of information gleaned from the stolen documents, nor the degree to which it may have benefited the McLaren team cars or race strategies. The F-car on the bookshelf in my room, at mommy's house, is a Topolino
This is where you lose me: First of all, McLaren suspended Coughlan once THEY found out he had the info. The announcement has nothing to do with the timeframe by which McLaren became aware of his involvement, none of us know what was going on behind the scenes or what communications existed between Ferrari, McLaren and the authorities. The announcement is certain to have come AFTER the facts were known, as did McLaren's actions. Second of all, immedately distancing yourself from a rogue employee is EXACTLY what a firm would do if they were NOT complicit. If they in fact were using that info, why would you risk alienating Coughlan to the point where he started disclosing everything to the authorities if he had the ability to implicate McLaren? If that were the case, they would circle the wagons around him, not throw him to the wolves, as they did. you distance yourself from a wrongdoer if you are not involved, you protect him if you were. Thirdly, what would you expect Neale to tell him other than order him to immediately destroy documents that he, and McLaren, should not have?!? It sounds to me like Neale did exactly what a responsible manager should do. Had Neale and/or McLaren behaved any differently, then suspicion regarding McLaren's involvement would be warranted. However the actions they took, as well as their making available to the FIA any information necessary to prove that no technology from Ferrari was duplicated on the McLaren is completely supportive of McLaren's innocence. First of all, employers are not liable for transgressions employees do outside of the office. McLaren is no more responsible for Coughlan's acts than an employer is for his employees smoking crack on weekends. Coughlan had these documents at home and he was proferring them to Honda, not McLaren. Second of all, the burden of proof lies not with McLaren proving they didn't do anything. It lies with the authorities and with the FIA to prove that McLaren DID do something. You are familiar with concepts like the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof, are you not? This fact is lost on a lot of people here who seem to see conspiracies in Ron Dennis' morning bowel movements. Baseless accusations, ridiculous leaps of logic, and personal animosity are not sufficient evidence of any improprieties on McLaren's part. It is moronic to lay out a baseless accusation against someone and then demand that the responsibility is on them to prove you wrong, the legal system does not work that way.
A very big +1 to the whole post - Thankyou! Given that RD=Lucifer, I can see conspiracies coming from his bowel movements....
So Neale discovers that Coughlan has stolen information in possession and instead of handing him over to the police you suggest he did the right thing to order to destroy the evidence?!
Sen says that, even if Neale knew that Coughlan had the documents, and told him to destroy them... Neale and McLaren did the "right thing," shouldn't be held responsible, and we're biased.
Then maybe you should subscribe to this great Ferrari site and also update your profile. For someone who says he is a Ferrari fan you sure go a long way to defending a team that looks guilty to a small extent and possibly a great extent. I somehow get the feeling that if Ferrari was found with all of the same info on the Macs that you would be hanging Ferrari. Maybe Im wrong but then I have this feeling. By the way my 1/1 scale 355 wont fit in my parents basement.
Originally Posted by Senna3xWC Second of all, the burden of proof lies not with McLaren proving they didn't do anything. It lies with the authorities and with the FIA to prove that McLaren DID do something. You are familiar with concepts like the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof, are you not? way. It should be noted that the law in Europe is different then here in the USA: you are guilty until you prove your innocence. It is up to McLaren to prove that they were not involved and consequently derived no benefit.
