And it's not the NBA, NFL, or NCAA's job to enforce anti-doping policies, as long as the players don't show up for the game with detectible levels. Yeah, right. There's this concept called 'sportsmanship' that you may have heard of. Some people find it important.
I don't see why you're attacking my common sense? Everyone is jumping to conclusions and calling for the heads of anyone at McLaren. As I already stated if we do find out that Coughlan was suspended as soon as McLaren learned of the acusations then they really haven't done anything wrong. If Coughlan's accusations are true and McLaren did know about the documents and waited until they were suspected of wrongdoing to suspend him then yes they do deserve to be punished. If Stepney was the one to release the information to another team the majority of the blame will fall on him as well. I'm not pointing a finger at Ferrari, it's not their fault if Stepney broke the rules, hell they already fired the guy. You and all the other people claiming McLaren is clearly the be all end all in the case are the ones that need to rethink your own common sense. I will agree that the part I bolded is a crazy statement.
I don't see how Ferrari is to blame here? According to other posts he was given a lower level position with less access to sensitive data, and when they discovered possible wrongdoings they fired the guy and opened an investigation. What more are they supposed to do? They're not giving documents to Coughlan or McLaren and then going after them for espionage.
Whatever happened with the tampered SF fuel systems that the team noticed following the Monaco GP? Was this a Stepney sabotage job?
We don't know all the facts yet concerning Stepneygate, however I believe it's time to consider solutions to this mess. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794 At one extreme there is a call to take away all of McL's points this season and ban them from racing for the rest of 2007. Unless it is proven that McL changed the technology on their cars, I think this is too harsh and not good for the sport. Dennis has claimed that no technology from SF has found its way into the McL cars. I believe him. But if he lied about that and did use SF data, then I believe a points loss and ban is appropriate. However, I do not think this will happen nor should it happen with the information we currently possess. The other extreme is to do nothing other than maybe terminate Coughlan and ban him from F1 for life. This is too lenient IMVHO. Supposedly, Coughlan's affadavit states that he showed the information to McL Managing Director Neale and others at McL. Because McL had the information and did not inform either SF or F1, they have cost SF and the sport in terms of time, treasure and credibility. IMVHO McL should be fined and penalized. Fines. McL should reimburse SF and F1 for all the expenses they have incurred as a result of Stepneygate. Stepney should have to give to SF any funds received from selling SF property to Coughlan or any other party and Stepney should go to jail for at least 4 years. Penalties. For the number of races that McL had the SF information until the time that they make restitution for SF's and F1's economic losses, McL should have to start at the back of the grid. If it is all 9 races, then they would have to start at the back of the grid for the rest of 2007 (8 races) and the first race of 2008. This would be good for the sport and McL's sponsors. Their cars would be on the track and the fans would have the enjoyment of seeing FA and LH pass and possibly earn points. If SF had breakdowns or made mistakes, McL could still win the WCC and LH or Alonso could still possibly win the WDC. Well, that's my proposal. Not perfect, but better for the sport than a ban or points loss or both IMVHO.
If McL is proved to have cheated in any way (with this info they got), no matter if RD knew about it or not, they should be banned for the rest of the season and all points taken away from them.
After Toyota espionage affair - Ferrari had to do something different to prevent information leaks in the feature. It is probably possible to have a case against Ferrari for not properly handling their confidential information.
SURE! And women get raped because their skirts are too short. Give your head a shake man! Just because I leave my door unlocked does not give anyone the right to break in. Simple rule of thumb.....If its not yours leave it alone! Thats not very hard to follow now is it? All these excuses are nothing but that.
You should follow the thread before replying - initially, frefan was blaming Mclaren for Coughlan's actions as an individual. If Coughlan was acting as an individual and no-one at McL knew anything, that would be as ridiculous as blaming Ferrari for Stepney's betrayal. As it turns out (recent news of the affidavit I had not been aware of), some others at Mclaren *had* apparently been aware of Coughlan's ill-gotten gains. Which definitely increases Mclaren's culpability as a team, that's why I said I stand corrected in my last post.
I don't think expulsion is really going to happen. It is the most severe penalty and I'm sure the standard is high for such action. It would be a shame for such a good season and LH.
Innocent people get hurt when someone commits a crime. But that does NOT mean the criminal should not be punished. When a father or mother goes to jail for stealing, the rest of the family suffers even though they had nothing to do with the crime. Note: It is a crime to steal something that does not belong to you. If your neighbor steals your TV and puts it in his basement, s/he is guilty of a crime even though s/he never watches it. S/he may have plans to sell the TV. It doesn't matter. They stole the TV for whatever reason and must suffer the consequences. Same priciples apply to intellectual property especially when a competitor is involved. You have to watch Ron Dennis and what he says very carefully. He said no intellectual property from SF is on the McL car. He did not say no one else at McL did not know about it. He did not say that he himself did not know about it. He did not say that McL did not take SF's strategy into account for their own racing. He did not say that they did not change their set-up as a result of having the SF confidential data. He did not say that anyone at McLaren guilty of having this information or using it would be punished (maybe because he would have to include himself). Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
To all of you who say it's not fair to penalize the drivers, I say I agree. They knew nothing of the cheating, they were just doing their jobs, and that's not fair. But life and business are not fair. Was it fair to the up and coming young superstar managment at Enron? They're company doesn't exist anymore. Ditto to Aurther Andersen. Was it fair to the brilliant talent they had? How about any number of companies, who's managment has run them into oblivion. All these people were just doing their jobs, some exceptionally just as Lewis has done. You've just never heard of the systems manager from Enron, or the lead audit director from AA. But they all were hurt by the actions of their supervisors. Unfortunately, in life and in business, these are the risks you take by chosing to work for someone. And a lot of times, it's the luck of the draw.
for some reason, i think they're gonna get banned. Mike already claimed he showed some of the team personnel the secret stuff from Ferrari. but then again, it's just a guess. BAR got banned 2 races back in 2005 for racing an underweight car. so, i think a minimum of 4 race ban for Mac.
Imagine somebody stealing your car because you left it outside with keys in ignition. Twice. On a second time Insurance company may ask what did you do different this time to prevent theft from occurring. I am not saying that Ferrari is negligent in a ways they handle confidential information or anything. But somebody may explore it. Fortunately for Ferrari they aren't publicaly held.
Brian, if Neale knew about it, regardless of wheter or not he told anything to his superiors, I have a feeling, that McLaren will also face a ban. What a way to wreck a great season.
don't know if anyone mentioned it, but i think they will dock them just enough points towards the end of the season to make it interesting. remember last year when micheal was lagging a little? in addition, i think mcmerc is already gonna get a kick in the balls even if nothing happens. losing your designer and having a black cloud over your organization is just too much pressure when your at the top.
I agree we do not know all the facts and all the back room deals that are/may be made. I have not thought about the "punishment" because I do not know the facts, but to say "Unless it is proven that McL changed the technology on their cars" is not correct either. I say this because if you have technical data of how certain wing settings work or do not work, then you would not have to waste time testing those data points. You could move on from that data and further your testing program much faster than teams who have to test to get those data points. In airfoil design we always used known data as a starting point before running optimization programs to modify the airfoil to get the desired Cd and Cl. This took a lot of super computer time. All teams are developing their cars, MAKING CHANGES, McL had a huge jump in performance. Not making accusations, ... just saying .... I like this topic about as much as the "Alonso is a crybaby", "How soon can Ferrari get rid of Kimi", and "Massa is a second tier driver" threads. But alas, we have a week off from F1 racing
+1 McL, Ferrari, F1 and even the FIA is in a no win situation. If McL is docked poits some how and Ferrari wins the championships it will be a hollow victory. If McL wins, it will tainted with the scandal. Hopefully Ferrari beats McL on the track. If the FIA finds McL guilty of some infraction(s), maybe they can wait until the season is over before assigning punishments. Either way it is a no win situation
Would you still agree if their cars were found to have a hidden turbo charger in them or a mechanically driving floor board to change the AoA?
