FACT: He showed the documents to additional Mclaren employees, including mind you,Jonathon Neale TEAM Manager who also reports directly to Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarsh. This was no low level showing off of easily found data. (this from the Coughlan affidavit) Should I go on? Well......... FACT: NO team member from Mclaren reported this transgression to any authority FACT: Ferrari is not complicit as the data was STOLEN from them FACT: It cannot be proven this data, including moveable floor data was NOT used by Mclaren. In fact its pretty damning given the timeline that Mclaren could have used this data. It will be difficult to prove otherwise. FACT: The FIA have every right to evaluate Mclaren. No matter the outcome at the very least given the volume of data stolen gives rise to sometype of investigation. It is a crime and frankly no matter the penalty Mclaren will get off pretty easily. The only person looking at jail time isnt working for Mclaren!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A more appropriate analogy would be if you took that info and offered yourself out to a third company with info from both your current employer as well as their other main competitor. There is absolutely no evidence that any of that Ferrari information found its way the McLaren car. However it has been admitted by Honda, Stepney and COughlan that the pair both offered themselves as a team to Honda, along with the Ferrari info.
+1 The McL supporters/defenders choose to ignore these and other facts. Then accuse people who criticise McL as not objective. I think they doth protest too much. The McL team knew (how many is not known to us but at least three and maybe more including RD) had SF information and told no one outside the McL team. The discovery was made by a copy shop employee when the wife of McL's chief designer was secretly trying to make illegal copies. McL's managing director (Neale) tried to cover up by trying to get Coughlan to destroy the Ferrari data. Note it was SF's property. Not only did McL not have a right to have it, they had no right to destroy it. As good F1 citizens they had a duty to report and return it to the owner, namely SF. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
Fact? The fact is that official statements, from McLaren and Coughlan, have been contradicting each other, ever since this whole thing started. Mike, it's amazing, how your crystal ball is so friggin' clear and there has not been one person, that is closer to the situation, who can speak so definitively as you and Senna3xWC. Oh, so now you have a personal insight into the psychology of Mike Coughlan??? Why then...pray tell, did he even let the various McLaren personnel know that he had the documents? To signal them that he was about to leave for another team and possibly take McLaren secrets with him also??? I think not !! McLaren WAS in possession of the documents, at least, in the person of Mike Coughlan. No Mike, that is not the same and I am sure you see the difference. Crystal ball again.... That is quite similar to RD's carefully worded and often repeated statement to the press. He doesn't say they didn't see, analyze or use the info, just that no Ferrari technology is detectably present on the McLaren cars. If McLaren had the information, or if any of the information was used, in any way, to benefit McLaren, they should be penalized severely! In your opinion and Ron Dennis'. But as the days progress, more and more information has continued to surface, that has compounded the difficult position, that team McLaren finds itself in. There you go... Regards, Bill
Fact: Every person he informed of the documents existence refused to look at them and told them to destroy them. I guess you didn't actually read his affadavit. Should I go on? Well...... We know this how? All the reports indicate that McLaren immediately informed the FIA and Ferrari once the documents were found in Coughlan's possession. So Ferrari is not responsible for the actions of a rogue employee but McLaren is? Curious logic... It is not up to McLaren to prove that they didn't do anything wrong, it is up to the accusers to prove that they did. Otherwise I can claim that you are a child molester and it is up to you to prove me wrong. There is nothing damning other than your own baseless conclusions, clouded by your partisanship and refusal to accept known facts. Leaping to conclusions is a far cry from a provable allegation. Fact: McLaren innvited the FIA to examine the cars, the blueprints, and the research and development records from design inception of the car to prove conclusively that no Ferrari intellectual property was used on the car. McLaren has made absolutely no attempt to shield anything from the FIA's inspection whatsoever. A crime has taken place, certainly, and an investigation is completely warranted. However to leap from this fact to the conclusion that McLaren is guilty and deserves unishment is utterly ridiculous. None of the evidence points to this and thus far the only arguments here have been baseless accusations, clear animosity for the team and Ron Dennis, and ridiculous leaps to conclusions that are completely unfounded. The only people here who see a clear connection between the acts of a rogue employee and McLaren complicity are the ostriches who are creating a run on aluminum foil hats. When you are ready to actually read the facts, then come back to us. Otherwise your time is better spent with your compatriots scouring the hills of Area 51 looking for UFOs.
Thanks, but I think I will spend the weekend in yet another search for the Sasquatch. At least that way I won't get shot at by the CIA.
Why not? Apparently you have personal insight into Ron Dennis and the McLaren organization... I would have thought you answered your own question: You consider McLaren and Coughlan to be one and the same?!? Does McLaren own Coughlan's house? That is the only place where Ferrari documents were found. Look at it another way, GE has tens of thousand so of employees. Let's say one of them goes postal and kills his neighbor's family, is IBM responsible? According to you, they must be since the nutcase was an employee of GE at the time.
I know, I know, it was HER fault you raped her. She never would have worn that outfit if she wasn't planning to be raped......
Sorry I know, I know, it was HER fault you robbed her. She never would have worn that ring, or heck even bought it if she wasn't planning to be robbed......
As i understand here , the complexity comes from what was stolen = Intelectual property. The minute you have read the document, the harm is done. Even if you do not apply said IP to your car , you know how your concurrent works and developps their own car. That is why some of the Mc employees told him to destroy without even looking . Its a for your eyes only document.
I missed that report. can you direct me to the report that says no ferrari info found it's way into the mclaren? or maybe a detailed list of all the evidence in the case. It's been a long thread. absolutely is a pretty strong word. and "Fact: Every person he informed of the documents existence refused to look at them and told them to destroy them. I guess you didn't actually read his affadavit." hate to break it to you, but what is stated in an affidavit is hardly considered fact in a court of law. and coming from a guy that's trying to do damage control and keep his career alive, i wouldn't expect him to drop any incrimating evidence into an affidavit.
Read this article: http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1184535221/formula_one/F1headlines/McLaren-knowledge-a-disaster/view.html I say... it might not be so much altering YOUR design to be a copy of your rivals as so much as it is the knowledge of what your rival has constructed. Everything from the car's design to the team's strategies.... Which leads to McLaren's inquiry to the FIA regarding Ferrari's "moveable floor". I keep seeing too many "just coincidences" to wholeheartedly believe McLaren's innocence. Especially since they said "Coughlan was the only one with knowledge" of the doc's. Then it gets out that he showed Neale and others. "Oh, except you know... everyone else on the team. But I swear we told him to destroy them." Pretty soon its going to be revealed that Neale and Ron Dennis are radioactive bears dressed in disguise and they're real plan is to overpower Russia and start a colony of Siberian Tyrannosaurus Rexes who can fly MiG-29s and I'll see all the reports and I'll just say "Oh. Yeah, that's not surprising. I told you SO!! Gimme my 5 bucks!" Crazy.
*Jul.16 (GMM) Mike Coughlan has sworn in his affidavit that he told several fellow McLaren employees about his possession of reams of secret Ferrari material. Italian newspaper La Repubblica reproduced excerpts of the document, which as part of a private agreement with Ferrari cannot be used by Italian prosecutors in a case against the suspended engineer. But, if it is the truth, the signs are not good for Woking based McLaren, which has so far insisted that only chief designer Coughlan knew about the sensitive information that was in his possession earlier this year. "It's true," Coughlan reportedly wrote in his sworn statement. "I had all the designs. "It was my responsibility. I showed those designs to McLaren and not just to (managing director) Jonathan Neale but to others as well. "Everyone reacted the same way and told me to get rid of them." At an emergency World Council meeting later in July, the FIA will question McLaren about its involvement in the espionage saga. Possible sanctions range from docked points and race bans to total exclusion from the world championship. Coughlan did not confirm that Ferrari's Nigel Stepney sent him the material, explaining that he received the package from a courier mail service* HEre you go . IF this is the truth, Mclaren should have suspended him the moment he told them he had the designs.Coughlan knew the designs of the Ferrari , that alone is enough to harm Ferrari since he stayed on board and was in charge of the design of the Mc F1.
You are grasping at straws now!!! I have never even intimated a similar case. Your misguided analogies are quite amusing, however totally irrelevant. Sen, is it GE or IBM, that you're picking on??? How could IBM be held responsible for a GE employee killing his neighbors??? LOL !! Coughlan's actions were related to his and McLaren's business affairs, murder is not GE or IBM's advertised business focus. I would hope that even you, could see the difference in that.
Why is it that this line sems to escape everyone's notice. This is hardly the reaction of an organization bent on utilizing stolen information, if anything this seems to be the reaction of an organization with integrity. No one here knows exactly when McLaren learned of Coughlan's actions, when they actually suspended him and when they contacted the FIA and Ferrari. What is clear is that no one, including Coughlan, has stated that any information from these documents found their way into the McLaren design process. A lot of folks here seem to be on a witch hunt, regardless of the facts.
I agree, however , the fact that Coughlan read and had the knowledge of Ferraris design and IP is where it hits the fan. He was the senior designer and had info he shouldnt have. I doubt he designed the Mclaren car without thinking of what he had read/learnt. Maybe he didnt want to but how can you unlearn something ?
I hear you, whatever happens this one big mess that never should have happened. Regardless of the outcome, it will taint this season and F1 in general.
Lets assume he was innocent and someone just sent him these documents without his prior knowledge. The minute he received them he should have notified the FIA and Ferrari. He may have been innocent when he received them, but his actions and McLaren's actions after they received them made them guilty. It is not a question of if they used the information it is a question of possesion, and McLaren, through its employee had possesion of these documents and did nothing about it. This is pretty clear, they knew they had stolen confidential documents and they did not report or return them. I do not know what the penalty will be, but I suspect it should be significant.
Stop commenting, that is just be the beginning! No matter what the outcome, the comments will continues for years I bet Do you remember back in '07 when they caught the McLaren designer with ferrari designs and the FIA........I couldn't believe it......
