LOL !!! If you think that your GE/IBM/GE "analogy," is actually analogous to the situation that we discuss here, it does provide us with a deeper understanding of your continued protestation.
People seem to forget that McL suspended him only when it was public that he had SOMETHING to do with Stepney who stole SOMETHING from Ferrari and sent it to SOMEONE. But now it comes out that people knew about the documents and that Coughlan had them in his possession since March/April/whenever. So when they first stated they did not know anything regarding the materials from Ferrari.... it was a complete lie. Lets be generous and attribute that to try and quell the bad press, and move on, ignoring the fact that they lied about the whole issue. Next, even if all they other employees other than Coughlan ran away from the Ferrari documents like they were the plague, Coughlan is their Head Designer. Let us play out a little scenario of what would happen next: Coughlan: "Hey, I have these Ferrari docs that show their design and race strategy." McLaren Employee: "NOOO!!!! Get them away!!! Destroy them!" C: "Hm. I'll put them back in my bag, jeez." McL:"Ok, good. Now uhh... lets get back to work on our new design." C: "Um... yeahhh. That's a good idea. I think we need to change this, that, this, and this." McL: "You sure?" C: "Yes. Lets try it." McL: "Ok." Coughlan: "Yo Neale old chap, I got some Ferrari fluff you ought to have a look at." Neale: "Nooooo no no no no, I can already see that's a bad idea. No way, get rid of those things, ok?" C: "Ok." N: "Ok. Good. So... you have that new design of the car?" C: "Yup." N: "Right-O, let's have a look at it." Hahaha you think just cause they "all told him to destroy it" the HEAD DESIGNER isn't going to remember anything when they're designing their car? And um, people seem to forget the photocopies that were being made. I'm a designer and let me tell you how our brains work: I remember the smallest little detail about a car that is new, refreshing, odd, or ugly after the first time I see it. We sit around at lunch talking about the front fenders on such and such, the taillights on the new whatever. Trust me, even if things were destroyed (they weren't) a designer does not forget stuff. "But McL suspended him when they found out." Yeah. When we the public found out. Not 3 months ago when they kept him as lead designer after he reviewed Ferrari's whole strategy and design for this season.
Because unless someone can show that you used the idea, then there is nothing that can be done against you - nor should it be. Innocence is presumed, guilt must be proven. I presume McLaren didnt use the info to change the design of their car. If they did, it will probably come out. As for strategy info, did Coughlan have control of that? I doubt it. It's probably Ron's call and if Coughlan suddenly comes up with ideas contrary to what has been done all along, which help win races, then that is easily provable too. But until it is, it's pure speculation that it happened and it probably didn't. At the most, perhaps setup info about the Ferrari helped McLaren set up their cars. But from my limited racing experience, what works for one car will absolutely not transfer over to another car. And that is IF Coughlan used the info and again it's presumed he did not, especially given he was trying to parlay it into a job at Honda (so we can assume he wanted more than he had at McLaren) and if that is true, why would he want to narrow the gap he could offer Honda (or another team) by propping up the previous employer? You can't convict McLaren just because an employee did something wrong - until and unless it can be proven that the info made it's way into McLaren's car then they should not and can not be held accountable.
The analogy fails because it's not about whether Coughlan meant to do it or not - of course he did, he likely did it knowingly and with malice. These are global corporations involved. If an engineer from IBM steals the plans from Compaq for their new PC and plans to sell them to Toshiba and get a cushy job out of it, but is then discovered, nothing will happen to IBM unless it can be *proven* that they acted upon or used the information. If they told him that he better get rid of it, then they did what they were obligated to do by law, IMO. Anyone who wants to attach more consequences to that action is just speaking out of hatred for McLaren. Why should McLaren be MORE liable than the law allows for? Other than possibly bringing the sport into disrepute by allowing this to happen or not coming clean when they knew it had happened - and not surprisingly this is what (and all) they are being accused of.
Bill I dont know if you are just being obtuse or are so blinded by your love for the marque that you're not seeing the common sense of my post, but I'll reply to your points individually. No, they haven't. McLaren said they were not in posession of the documents, and they were not. Its not a crystal ball - it's called common sense and reading what's been reported. It was outright said (by HONDA themselves I may add) that Coughlan tried to get them to buy into his plan of getting the Ferrari info and giving him a job. In addition, Coughlan has stated that anyone he told at McLaren didnt want to see the info and told him to get rid of it. How you translate that to McLaren (the corporation) being in posession is a mystery to me, but I suspect the roots are somewhere in Ferrari-fanboi'ism Unlike others I have not been mixing one part speculation, with one part McLaren hatred, and three parts ignorance to come to my conclusions. They are based on the reported facts. My speculation would be that Coughlan maybe thought he could leverage the docs to help himself out at McLaren. Presumably he did this after Honda rebuffed his offer. That may be incorrect but I sure as hell am not going to say it on here like it's a fact and argue with anyone who disagrees. What we DO know is the affidavit states he did not use the info at McLaren and others did not want to see the documents. Read up on the legal entity status of a corporation. Coughlan is NOT McLaren and vice versa. Just like if you steal the design for a competing product and go to your employer and they say "Bill we dont want to be involved with that, get rid of it" - your employer is not liable. To think otherwise is ignorant of the law and ignorant of what corporations are all about. I think anyone who equates Coughlan with the same as McLaren has gotta be at best an extreme Mac hater and at worst ought to buy a dictionary! It's an equally ridiculous assertion to yours. You are saying that having access to a means to perform an illegal deed is tantamount to performing that deed. My counter is that such a claim is ridiculous - because it is. The only thing we KNOW that McLaren have done is to not call the cops when they knew Coughlan had probaby broken the law. And while that may be in violation of some corporate ethics laws, it's a gigantic difference from actively cheating through stealing Ferrari proprietary information. I am hopeful you see the difference. Yeah, it's called reading the news. On my side we have the affidavit given by Coughlan that nobody wanted to see the info, we have the statement from Ron Dennis that nobody used the info, we have the offer of McLaren to have the car checked for any trace of Ferrari IP, and we have Honda's official statement that Coughlan offered to raise them above their competitors (which included McLaren) by selling them the IP. On your side we have... ummm... speculation, Ferrari-fanboyism and McLaren hated. You'll forgive me if I claim a win on the point. ...and no matter how much you ASSume that the info surely MUST have been used by McLaren and they are therefore liable, we need to establish that before they are penalized. If it cannot be established, they ought not to be penalized. Sorry but it's just common sense. McLaren is presumed innocent and until and unless it is established that they are not, then anything less than the presumption of innocense is premature, arrogant and ignorant. And it's entirely horsecrap that the situation has been compounded by "new information". If anything, McLaren has been somewhat exhonerated, if Coughlans statement that they didnt want to know anything about the documents proves true and it moves the issue from the realm of corporate espionage into the realm of protecting their own and trying to look out for them. And the most they could be held liable for if that is their only transgression would be a slap on the wrist by the FIA. If that's your (new?) stance, then why all the stuff about McLaren should get this fine and that penalty and Ferrari's loss will forever be questioned and Hamilton's performance will be less legitimate than it otherwise would be. Talk about running to conclusions... easy there Carl Lewis.
I assume McLaren checked with Neal before issuing this statement =============================== http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60866 McLaren: only Coughlan held documents By Jonathan Noble Monday, July 16th 2007, 16:29 GMT McLaren have denied that secret Ferrari documents found in chief designer Mike Coughlan's house were handled by any other member of their staff, and insisted that no team member knew about their existence before legal action began two weeks ago. Italian newspaper La Repubblica quoted last weekend from what it claimed to be the affidavit Coughlan supplied to Ferrari as part of the ongoing investigation. And, according to the newspaper, Coughlan stated that he had confided with several staff members that he had the documents. This came on the back of suggestions from Ferrari's High Court application last week that McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale had also been made aware of the documents - although it was not known when and how he had found out. McLaren have today dismissed those suggestions, however, and reiterated their stance that Coughlan acted alone in having the documents. They also made it clear that no one at the team knew of the situation until Ferrari began their legal action by applying for a search order of Coughlan's house. The statement said: "McLaren is concerned that erroneous speculation has arisen from inaccurate and misleading reference to the contents of confidential legal papers filed at court in response to Ferrari's UK action to recover its intellectual property. "This is unfortunate and is prejudicial to a fair interpretation of these matters. "McLaren can confirm from its own investigation that no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari. "The fact that he held at his home unsolicited materials from Ferrari was not known to any other member of the team prior to the 3rd July 2007." The FIA has summoned McLaren to an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council on July 26 to answer charges of 'fraudulent conduct' over Coughlan's possession of the material. The team have repeatedly insisted that no information from the Ferrari documents has manifested itself on their car. "McLaren has categorically established that no Ferrari information has at any stage been used to develop its car," the statement added. "McLaren looks forward to having the opportunity to present the complete and accurate picture of events in the appropriate forum, that is before the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on 26th July 2007."
Here's another analogy. Ok, how about this one then. 1 member of a world record setting, Olympic gold metal winning 440 relay team tests positive for performance enhancing drugs. What happens? The TEAM is stripped of their records and metals because its a team event and 1 member of the team was cheating. On a football team, 1 member of the offensive line is caught holding. The whole team recieves the penalty because it's a team event. F1 is a team event and 1 member of the McLaren team was caught cheating ..the penalty goes to the team. The only question is how sevier the penalty should be.
What happends if the person who designs his shoes caught with performance enhancing drugs out of office ?
Mike I don't know why you are being obtuse. If you want to have an intelligent discourse, leave my attributed statements in context, rather than making feeble attempts, to make them appear to say something other than they did when originally posted in direct response to your statements.
But if you are going to take the 'court of law' route, McLaren is innocent until proven guilty. We can't ASSume they must done this or that, we must prove it. The McLaren has not been faster than the Ferrari for a couple of races, so it appears the info has not helped in this regard. As for Coughlan trying to save his bacon - when someone is in deep poop, they tend to point the finger at EVERYONE who was even remotely involved. I think it's pretty safe to say Coughlans career in F1 is over, so there is nothing to preserve. Had McLaren been compicit in obtaining the info, or even had they been using it to further their own goals, it would likely have come out already. Everything we know points to McLaren not using the info and explicitly saying they do not want to know. So, in the absence of additional information, and using the legal definition of guilty and innocent (convenient because this IS playing out in a court of law), all the presumptions that McLaren did something wrong mean nothing.
Good point, however knowing illegally obtained info exists and was gleaned by your employee and then using it is a whole world different than knowing such information exists but refusing to even look at it and telling your employee to get rid of it. The latter is perhaps unethical and in violation of some good-samaritan laws and possibly in breach of fiduciary duty of the corporation, but it is most certainly NOT cheating and would be, at most, bringing the sport into disrepute. And I would argue that doing something that bring disrepute to the sport is massively lower on the severity scale than actively cheating. And regarding actively cheating, we know what the penalty was for Ferari when they had their flexing bodywork (aka cheating) and what the penalty was when they did the faux finish with MS and RB (bringing the sport into disrepute). When the shoe is on the other foot, the penalty should be a ban and loss of all points? Any who suggest such are speaking solely from dislike of McLaren and more likely dislike of Ron Dennis.
NO Sen McClown's analogy fails, simply because it is a hairbrained comparison. The example where somebody freaks-out and kills his neighbors, in no way relates to this case. No sense in discussing it. The suggestion to destroy evidence and failure on numerous McLaren principals parts, to report the felonius activity to the British authorities and the FIA, FOR THREE MONTHS makes Team McLaren complicit to the crime!!! Accessory after the fact !!! Partners in obstruction of justice !! More than enough for criminal charges. If you can't see that, you sir, have the blinders on.... not me.
How do you settle the case if Coughlan read the documents and used them as inspiration for designing the Mc2007 ?
Bad analogy met with your worse one. The designer of the shoes in that case is not part of the team, nor does HIS use of drugs affect anyone but himself. And drug use is not equal to stealing your opponent's materials. Its not like the engineers and designers on an F1 team exist to make sure that Lewis's brow doesn't get too sweaty. They deliver a product that is 90% of the whole sport (nowadays). If your designers and engineers cannot provide a good car, no matter your skill, you are fuxcked. Jenson Button, Barichello, Kimi (while at McL in 06), etc. Its a ******** team! Lets give everyone ALL the benefit of the doubt that there is to give. Fact still remains that Coughlan knew the info contained in those documents and McL knew, and STILL kept him employed and designing their car. That's the MOST forgiving conclusion that can be drawn, and its STILL illegal, wrong, unethical and cheating.
mate you make such outlandish statements are you sure your aluminium hat is on straight ? you and the other McL apologists need to sit down and absorb the fact there has been some crime committed here, tunnel-vision at it's extreme , at least Ferrari fans can acknowledge the TEAM can do wrong but not you lot !!
your personal attacks on people with your wacky conclusions is wearing thin, your dribble and McL apologies are ludicrous and grasp of reality is a worry, I hope Carnivore is still operational , it keeps tabs on people like you
The point being made was at which point is a corporation responsible for the actions of its employees outside the office? I fail to see how you are having such difficulty understanding such a simple point. Are you privy to facts that have not yet been made public? Thus far, McLaren has consistently stated that they first became aware of the documents once Ferrari took action to have Coughlan's home searched. Are you in possession of facts to the contrary? Would you care to document them for us? Or are you simply blinded by our hatred of McLaren that you are unable or unwilling to consider what is factually known, substituting instead your own illogical conclusions? Facts, as inconvenient and uncomfortable as they may be for you, do not support your conclusions. You are losing the argument, SRT Mike was completely accurate in his comments to you. Give it up and go back to chasing UFOs down in Roswell, the rest of your conspiracy theorists are waiting for you....
Grasp of reality? All I am doing is relying on KNOWN FACTS, not leaping to conclusions like you clowns. And you wish to talk about tunnel vision?!? By the way, speaking of McLaren apologists, take a look at how many of your fellow conspiracy theorists were slamming Kimi early in the season, calling for his ouster from the team, while I was arguing in support of him...then tell me how much of a McLaren apologist I am and how you are such a Tifosi. As much as I abhor stupidity, hypocracy is even worse.
Yes you can convict a company because an employee did something wrong. Happens all the time. Especially when it's an officer or part of the management team. If an employee is negligent, the company is liable. They are responsible for his actions. Look at sexual harassment. The company is liable once they know sexual harassment is taking place. If they do nothing or little about it, they can be sued for millions. Once McLaren management knew about the illegal documents Coughlan and Neale (so far) the company (team)became liable. Get it?
