don't start changing the subject, sure sign you're losing the argument ! now we are all clowns ??!! sorry to see you abhor yourself
I agree there are two different issues... It was too late in the season for the Ferrari information to make an immediate difference to McLaren. However, being in possesion of Ferrari technical information illegally obtained would be a felony in the US. The question is not if he had it, he did, the question is did even one other person at McLaren know the documents existed, if the answer is yes, then imho McLaren is in serious trouble. I do not know if you can make the penalty large enough to try and restore the integrity of F1 without hurting the drivers and therefore hurting F1. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Chris, knowing WHAT your major opponent is doing is a huge advantage would you agree ?? We see a lot of races decided by pit strategy and tire selection so having the game plan is a huge benefit and we now know that more than one McL employee knew about the documents, yet failed to raise the alarm
We don't know all the facts yet concerning Stepneygate, however I believe it's time to consider solutions to this mess. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794 At one extreme there is a call to take away all of McL's points this season and ban them from racing for the rest of 2007. Unless it is proven that McL changed the technology on their cars, I think this is too harsh and not good for the sport. Dennis has claimed that no technology from SF has found its way into the McL cars. I believe him. But if he lied about that and did use SF data, then I believe a points loss and ban is appropriate. However, I do not think this will happen nor should it happen with the information we currently possess. The other extreme is to do nothing other than maybe terminate Coughlan and ban him from F1 for life. This is too lenient IMVHO. Supposedly, Coughlan's affadavit states that he showed the information to McL Managing Director Neale and others at McL. Because McL had the information and did not inform either SF or F1, they have cost SF and the sport in terms of time, treasure and credibility. IMVHO McL should be fined and penalized. Fines. McL should reimburse SF and F1 for all the expenses they have incurred as a result of Stepneygate. Stepney should have to give to SF any funds received from selling SF property to Coughlan or any other party and Stepney should go to jail for at least 4 years. Penalties. For the number of races that McL had the SF information until the time that they make restitution for SF's and F1's economic losses, McL should have to start at the back of the grid. If it is all 9 races, then they would have to start at the back of the grid for the rest of 2007 (8 races) and the first race of 2008. This would be good for the sport and McL's sponsors. Their cars would be on the track and the fans would have the enjoyment of seeing FA and LH pass and possibly earn points. If SF had breakdowns or made mistakes, McL could still win the WCC and LH or Alonso could still possibly win the WDC. Well, that's my proposal. Not perfect, but better for the sport than a ban or points loss or both IMVHO.
John, I agree. I think it is going to be impossible to say "McLaren" did not benefit from this information, but I agree with Phil, I doubt any direct technology made into this year's McLaren. I guess I disagree to some extent though with Phil, regardless of if they used this information on the car or not the penalty for just having it for months and not reporting it to the FIA should be severe. This was not a low-level employee that had this information. I hate it because this has been a great season and now regardless of what happens, it will minimize the accomplishments of both McLaren and Lewis Hamilton. Ferrari cannot win unless there is no penalty otherwise it will look like they won by default. Phil has a point, no perfect way to penalize McLaren. No winners here....
sorry Phil, can't agree with that, there have been many cheats in history that have been acknowledged as 'winners' and we also know that winners rewrite history to suit themselves. I do agree we all lose just when it looks like the boys are coming good and fighting the good fight but this points system is hurting , 8 points for second is a bit rich and I feel can decide the WDC too early in the year with a few 2nds and the odd win
I normally read these threads from a distance, but one thing has been bugging me. Several people have mentioned this incident earlier in the season: McLaren protests against Ferrari for having a flexible floor in their car. The FIA rules stated that a floor must not flex upward (into the cockpit) more than a few millimeters with a certain amount of force applied. BUT ---- Ferrari's floor was flexing DOWNWARD....not upward, so I feel it was technically within the rules. The FIA then "clarified" this rule and Ferrari had to change their floor structure. The Ferrari's floor was flexing downward by only a few millimeters...just enough to stall the air a bit going under the car and help the aerodynamics on high speed sections of the track. MY QUESTION: How in the heck would/could any competitor possibly know this was happening? If it only happens at high speeds, and the floor movement is just fractions of an inch, how would you spot that? I would really like to hear from those educated in this stuff to tell me how? I tend to believe that McLaren could only have known about this from having first hand information about Ferrari's car. I'm not saying this as fact, but it does look suspicious to me. How about you....?
I can not believe you are so dense, it wasn't only Coughlan that knew of the Ferrari documents !!! McLaren is involved !!! GE did not tell the mass murdering employee to destroy evidence and take NO FURTHER ACTION UNTIL THREE MONTHS AFTER KNOWING OF THE CRIME !!! You are a fool, to issue such comments. I have lost nothing, particularly to the likes of your mental deficiencies and wild lunacy. You have so forcefully quoted, from Coughlan's affidavit didn't you see it? From Coughlan's affidavit: Coughlan confided with several colleagues http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60794 "...Coughlan also allegedly reveals that he showed these documents to several people at McLaren - and not just to managing director Jonathan Neale, as had previously been known. According to La Repubblica, Coughlan states that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from these documents and advising him to destroy them...." Coughlan: Co-workers Knew Created on 16 Jul 2007 http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=477121&CPID=583&clid=&lid=4169&title=Coughlan:+Co-workers+knew&channel=Formula+One Suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan has allegedly said that a number of people at the Woking-based outfit were aware that he had the 'secret' Ferrari dossier. Italian daily newspaper La Repubblica reported that Coughlan confirmed as much in the 'confidential affidavit' he handed over to Ferrari's lawyers in London last week. "It's true. I had all the designs," Coughlan is also quoted as saying by the MailonSunday.co.uk. "It was my responsibility. "I showed those designs to McLaren and not just to Jonathan Neale (team manager) but to others as well. Everyone reacted the same way and told me to get rid of them." If this latest information does prove to be true, then it is in someways contrary to the position maintained by McLaren team boss Ron Dennis: namely that Coughlan acted alone. "McLaren has completed a thorough investigation and can confirm that no Ferrari intellectual property has been passed to any other members of the team or incorporated into its car," read a statement from McLaren team earlier this month. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that he held at his home unsolicited materials from Ferrari was not known to any other member of the team prior to the 3rd July 2007. - McLaren Racing - 7/16/07 - http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070716184045.shtml Hey SRT Mike, do you see a contradiction?
I have met a couple of people like you in my days and I feel for you. You may have more knowledge than I in F1 and more insight than I into this scandle but I do know for sure that you do not have a better grasp than I for life in general. That is very plain to see in the way you attack and name call on here. I have never called you any name what so ever and yet you have called me a moron and and idiot. You also belittle the firefighting profession which I have been a part of for 30 years. Like this post or not you have much to learn in your journey through this life. Hope you can put as much into it as you do on this board.
Guys give it up ... I'm going to request to the moderator that this thread is closed, killed, buried and long forgotten about. You all need to have a good long look at yourself in the mirror and well leave the internet alone for a week or so. Very sad. Pete
What about those of us wanting to discuss Stepneygate? @Carguy: I totally 100% agree. Even if the design data was not used to copy the F2007, knowing where and what to protest to eliminate its advantages (if any) by means of an illegally acquired document is grounds for punishment in the same regard. Assuming that happened. And hey, if it looks like shxt and it smells like shxt then it must be shxt!
word, I'd still like to discuss it this is a great place to collect facts and quotes but the name calling and nonsense is out of control.
This is your supposition, this is not a fact. McLaren has repeatedly declared that they informed the FIA and Ferrari immediately after learnign of Coughlan's possession of the documents. Are you aware of any EVIDENCE that contradicts this, other than the statement of Coughlan??? How is it that you find Coughlan, a man who proferred not only the Ferrari info but McLaren info as well to Honda? You accept the word of a man who has been found committing an illegal act over the word of an organization whose integrity had never been questioned in the F1 paddock? Are you clairvoyant? Did the Space Aliens tell you this?? I am done with you, 355 and the rest of the ostriches who seem to be willing to leap to conclusions without possessing any of the facts. Tell Elvis I said hi when you see him...
You mean other than questioning my Ferrari ownership and calling me a McLaren apologist? By the way, I didn't question the firefighting profession, I questioned you. Get it straight.
All of these examples assume the guilty party committed the act while in the course of his professional duties. In Coughlan's case, the documents were found in his home, not in his office at McLaren nor in his computer at McLaren. Once again, I have yet to hear of an instance where a company is liable for actions an employee undertakes in his private life.
My sentiments too . . . most here have already crucified and buried McLaren without knowing the truth and actual facts behind this ordeal - mostly going on suppositions. Many forget about the not so correct things Ferrari has done but readily label McLaren as McCheats. I'm surprised someone hasn't attempted to link Gil de Ferran (Sporting Director at Honda) who has left immediately with this mess too. He's leaving immediately to pursue other ventures - as he has stated "I simply feel that I came to this team to fulfil a particular role and it has not materialised as I had hoped. I would like to thank everyone at the team for the support." He's a good friend of Rubens. Carol
well my life is at a total loss now ... just because you can't debate correctly you ignore your protagonists, that's a mature thing to do
