I am debating just fine, it is just that the three of you have your heads so far up your collective arses that it is pointless for me to continue.
what a load of dribble, "Many forget about the not so correct things Ferrari has done " NO !! we all pointed out that Ferrari have been well known for skullduggery in the past, and now that "wonderful" McL have done it it can't possibly be true "for the sake of the sport" !!!! stop trying to dilute the debate by bringing up extraneous garbage about Gil de Ferran BTW what do you call it when one team has the game plan of it's MAIN rival ?? fair dibs ???
putting me on ignore you said .... still lying to yourself and continuing the colourful language regurgitation I see
Agreed, as I've said a million times we can't hang McLaren out to dry until all the evidence is out there and the FIA has had all the hearings.
John, All jknight is saying is that we need the facts before we can convict McLaren. You have already tried and convicted them, and yet we know only what the press tell us, which has been proven to be BS so many times. That is why this thread is a complete waste of time. Nobody here knows anything, heck even if their brother works for McLaren and sister works for Ferrari we still do not know anything. All we know this could be a Williams instigated move, ie. they're paying Stepney to try and bring Ferrari and McLaren back to their level. Very clever!!. So why don't we all just be paitent and wait for the "all most" facts from the press . Pete That is why the moderators should close this thread. It is NOT doing any good at all left open. Heck www . IAmAnIdiot . com has more intelligent discussions.
You have nailed it. If there is any issue which causes McLaren to be punished, this is it. However, any punishment which gives the season to Ferrari would be horribly bad for F1. I feel a 20 point dock of Constructors points and 10 points per driver would be reasonable. This would make things competitive, and I doubt McLaren has gotten what amounts as a 20 point advantage due to having these documents. I do wonder what would happen if this "technical dossier" was put on the internet.
While direct proof is always a nice thing to have, we dont always have the luxury. Many times the court of public opinion is the greatest common denominator. Even if Mcl is exonerated, MB may have lost some good longtimes customers if they cant get over this. And its all really very sad. Mcl may not be directly involved, and without hard evidence no charges can really be filed. But almost $ 2million US dollars (over 1 million GBP reportedly changed hands) is a great sum of money, and points to someone, or something larger behind it. Our curiosities and suspicions are heated up looking for answers. Its not going to be satisfied without some good hard evidence somewhere. But... If it were only Coughlan involved, one would still have a weak case just because thats a lot of money. When two top officials, managers of the division are fingered, it doesnt look to good. They all try to peek, or in anyway get a look see at the competition, but this goes far beyond simple peeking. This is full blown espionage. And Its big time crime, not no light duty stuff. You dont get your hands slapped for doing this, you get your hands cuffed.
I agree with you to a point but. That kind of punishment would only encourage the teams that are so far behind to get desperate. They may not even have 10 points to give up. So what do they have to loose? I really believe that if Mclaren new about the flexifloor of the Ferrari then they knew more. On another point. Some on here think that this is a waste of time but then again this is a discussion site. There is a lot of bantering and name calling going back and forth. I guess we will just have to wait it out 10 more days or so and see what gives. In the mean time, I wish we had a place to wager on this site because I would love to see if some of the Mcboys here would really put their money where their mouth is. I know I would back Ferrari with out a problem. Im sure some would come out and say thats not fair as they have already found the documents on Mclaren.......
Pete, I have never called for McL to lose any points, ...yet, but I have been getting fed up with people putting their head in the ground because they want to see "good racing" This has been industrial esionage from the start but some here are blindly assuming McL are innocent from what RD says. I don't consider it good racing when one team KNOWS what the other team is up to ... ask yourself one thing in all this, McL head designer has this info for 3 months, supposedly shows it to other McL employees who tell him to get rid of it then Coughlan's wife goes to get a copy made at the local copy center, copy center person notices Ferrari logo on top and reports it, Ferrari get a search warrant executed in Britain (you can't just walk into someones house and start searching for stuff) and find 780 pages of Ferrari documentation with the full gamut of Ferraris 2007 season, Ferrari seem to be giving Coughlan a deal of not having to face Italian law system so long as he draws up an affidavit for sumbission to the FIA ..... what do you think they would do that for if there were no incriminating evidence to their benefit ?? We're talking about one of the most savvy teams in the FIA here ,Ferrari, not some backyard tricksters trying to slip higher octane fuel past the scrutineers, Ferrari have something on them and the FIA have always favoured Ferrari, take the barge boards into consideration here for example, I fully expected any other team would have lost points or some other draconian penalty but not Ferrari. So if you take all the actions since the inception of this fiasco you can see that Ferrari will play this for all it's worth, and maybe, just maybe , they were the aggrieved party in all this but also remember that Bernie loves the competition to be close and Max is at his beck and call no matter what the rhetoric Max or bernie release. Arguing rather than debating the reported information degenerates to silly bickering and name calling, I was waiting for someone to tell me how Stepney got the information to Coughlan and how RD KNEW about the floor boards from the side of the track, answer that and we'll go a long way to getting to the bottom of this Either way, yes I am a hardcore Ferrari fan and don't really care which driver gets over the line first so long as the prancing horse is on the front of the car but by the same token I hated it when Schmacher smashed into the side of JV to try and win the WDC, reminded me too much of Senna and Prost, neither of which hold a candle to Nuvolari or Fangio Locking the thread only serves to close debate and stop any additional information or open thought on the subject, unless you are refering to people dragging in spurious rubbish about a totally unrelated subject which sheds no light on cognative thinking, mentioning Kimi or Gil de Ferran has nothing to do with debating unanswered questions being asked by us here and the FIA next week If McL are cleared by the FIA we should all take that as end of chapter , roll on the 26th
No one has said that McLaren is innocent. Some people aren't going to convict them prematurely. They could be innocent and they might be completely red handed guilty. Clearly you've already predetermined the outcome that you want, why are you offended by others who are choosing to wait and see what happens at the hearings before passing judgments?
your first two sentences contradict each other, and you cannot read my mind , I said IF they were guilty WAY back at the start of this thread they should be treated the same as Honda were, as Schumacher was, as any transgressor should be , in the same circumstances. The trouble here is too many people have either little knowledge of F1 or refuse to acknowledge any transgression made by McL and all want to clear McL or any of their employees so we can have an interesting racing season, THAT is what concerns me, it smacks of allowing an unfair advantage by one side is fine so long as the racing is interesting and I was only "offended" by one stupid post about a fireman not being able to afford a Ferrari, I would really appreciate it if someone can tell me how RD KNEW the floorboards moved in the Ferrari tub ?? I have no problems with anyone that can prove McL or their employees are innocent but the evidence is thin on the ground with as much supposition as the hardcore Ferrari supposition, even though a lot of current evidence suggests wrong doings by McL
I was one of the many that would like to maintain the interesting season, but conceptually agree with you John, they should get in the appropriate trouble. My point was that the season will become boring if they do. Just like Bernie and the FIA did soooo many times to help Ferrari win that WDC the first time in 21 years. Bernie knew this was bringing in the money. It was embarrassing to witness sometimes. This was off topic, but could not resist reminding the Ferrari followers ... Good question. In the end I believe what will happen will heavily depend on how much profit Bernie is going to make on the "result". Nothing else matters to Bernie and as we all standard around with our fingers up our @rse and let him destroy F1 like this, it will continue to happen. Pete
very true Pete, Bernie is the WILD CARD here, he HAS been a stalwart Ferrari supporter and no argument from me there in his bias but it is only because he can get more money as Ferrari has such a huge following
I cant believe that a member of the World motor sport council would make a public statement like this before the hearings in Paris on the 26th. Anyway here it is: A member of the FIA's World Motor Sport Council has given a strong hint about which way he will be voting when his colleagues meet in central Paris on July 26. Spaniard Joaquin Verdegay confirmed to the newspaper Diario As that he will be present when the governing body's espionage case against McLaren is heard this month. He made it clear that he thinks the Woking based team should escape sanctions for allegedly possessing and using stolen material from Ferrari. "It is going to be very difficult to demonstrate that McLaren used that information and that it did so knowing where it came from," Verdegay said. "Certainly what I hope happens is that Dennis' team do not even get a reprimand, because it is almost impossible to prove anything. " He explained, however, that the situation could change if Dennis confesses to the crime - and in the light of a McLaren statement on Monday, that is highly unlikely. The team said that it has 'categorically established that no Ferrari information has at any stage been used to develop its car'. Source GMM CAPSIS International
Pete, I have been trying to make this same point to no avail. There are a couple of people here who have already made their minds up. According to them, a refusal to rush to judgement is the same thing as giving McLaren a whitewash. I am waiting to see actual evidence that McLaren used the information and/or participated in a cover-up (actual evidence, mind you. Not hearsay and not the sputtering of some McLaren-loathing foaming-at-the-mouth iconoclast) before I suggest that they be banned or suffer some similar punishment. From where I am sitting, two employees, one at McLaren and one at Ferrari, conspired to steal information in order to hire themselves out to a third team. I have yet to hear of any concern about Honda's role in any of this. According to McLaren, they went to the FIA and Ferrari once they learned of the search of Coughlan's home. Honda, on the other hand, kept silent until directly questioned. The only evidence of McLaren knowing anything beforehand comes solely from Coughlan, I have yet to hear anyone inside McLaren acknowledge prior knowledge of the Ferrari information. Until I see real evidence to the contrary, then the rest of this is simply the rantings of a couple of folks here blinded by their hatred of McLaren and ignorant of the actual facts of this case. I wonder what they will say of this supposed payoff money turns out to have come from another team, Honda perhaps? The ironic thing is that several of these self-professed "tifosi" are, unlike me, among Kimi's strongest critics early in the season. I find it amusing and a little pathetic how selective their definition of "ferrari-supporter" and "McLaren apologist" truly is.
WOW! You have a way of molding something into whatever you want. YOU love telling us what WE said and yet did not.
I know that in france a company can be liable for the wrongdoing of his employee if what he has done can be connected to his work ( im sorry for my crude explanation but that was from law school 6 years ago ). I will try to come up with a more elaborate explanation. The docs were find in his home but didnt he try to show them to the other employee ? And again, intellectual property is very peculiar. Lets say your company comes up with an new name for your new product. Your friend who works for the competition which is coming themselves with the same kind of product sees the suggested name at your house while watching F1 ... On monday , while brainstorming for names he suggest a different name but one that is close enough to the one your company was going to register so that it becomes impossible for your company to use its own suggested name anymore . The name was stolen during your friends private time . Here the docs were stolen from Maranello and sent to Coughlan who should have destroyed the docs the moment he received them and reported the theft. I would love to hear a lawyer's opinion on this : The moment he read the doc, the harm was done ? Eventhough he read it at home ?
It goes on all the time only they got CAUGHT.. Why carry on going round in circles with it until all the facts are made public..Any Debate requires hard facts not guess work.
I understand your points, despite not being an attorney There are a couple of ways to look at this: First of all, McLaren insists that no one outside of Coughlan knew of the documents until his home was searched. Thus far the only person who disagrees is Coughlan himself, a man who was preparing to leave the organization to join Honda and who was reportedly proferring his knowledge of McLaren as well as the Ferrari documents to Honda (hardly the work of a trustworthy and honest individual). His reliability as a source cannot go unquestioned, especially since McLaren has disassociated themselves from him and we have all seen how Stepney reacted to Ferrari after they pushed him aside. That Coughlan bears a grudge and is willing to smear McLaren must be considered, particularly in the absence of any supporting evidence to his allegations. Secondly, I agree completely that Coughlan should have destroyed the documents once he received them but given what is known for certain about this case, that Coughlan was trying to hire himself and Stepney out to Honda, then is it not reasonable to assume that Coughlan himself sought these documents? I don't believe that these were sent to him unbidden, I think he was complicit in their theft. Lastly, as far as damage being done once he read the documents, this same damage is done to a team each and everytime a member of its staff is hired away by another team. Surely Adrian Newey did not unlearn everything he knew once he left McLaren for Red Bull, did he not? Nor did Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne forget everything they knew about Benetton when they embarked for Ferrari? Had McLaren wanted this information, would it not have made better sense to simply hire Nigel Stepney from Ferrari rather than engage in such a potentially damaging espionage??
Did it ever dawn on anyone that maybe Mclaren and Coughlan were setting up a great alibi? In answer to your last statement about hiring Nigel. CONTRACT.
Yep, no sense looking for a logical answer when a convoluted and ridiculous conspiracy theory will suffice...
