The EMPLOYEE was involved in the activity. You guys are asking for a very dangerous ruling here, making employers liable for the acts of all employees. In my mind Mcl likely knew and did not come forward as they should, but absent any proof, this is the right ruling. As stated, if in the future the employer is found to have been involved or benefited, that's when there will be hell to pay.
Been that way since before the Roman Empire...is called 'respondeat superior' , which is Latin for let the master answer... http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1827&bold=
the FIA founf them GUILTY as charged! ...they broke the code...and they dont even get a slap in the hand? ...I dont care about the rest of the facts...were´s the punishment for breaking THE RULES? LETS RACE!!!! I cant wait for hungary...
McLaren was found GUILTY of breaking article 151c of the International Sporting Code. Which specifically states the teams responsibility for all of it's members actions. They just weren't penalized for it.
I totally agree with you, I don't want to see Ferrari win the championship at the green table - but even more, I don't want to see our team lose it there, and that's what might have happened today...
What's next? Will these guys just start picking up MCL cars when they slide off and get stuck in the mud and putting them back on the track? Will they just let people make up a lap because they got behind? Oh - never mind. As RD said - he is not happy with this either. What a guy.
Ah yes, it is so. I guess what I was thinking is that he (employee) had "posession" of material/ info that was apparently not used in the course of his employment. At his home, at the copy store, etc... Employer liable without evidence of knowledge or use? And ya'll don't worry, I do bleed red not silver, just looking at the other view.
Look at it this way: We just got ourselves the perfect excuse if the team doesn't win the championship this year.
Not yet... I know I wouldnt want to be racing for the McLiar team as any points in the WCC and WDC for 2007 and 2008 could disapear at anytime in the future if evidence shows up. Even if nothing is found in the upcoming trials, there is always the possibility of a future disgruntled employee coming forward. Im sure the McLiar team and Ron are not 100% happy with todays results. In the meantime....Lets KICK ARSE!!!!
+1 Also think about it from a commercial perspective: It doesn't look good for McLaren to have been found guilty. The sponsors and Mercedes won't like that. Also they have now the thread hanging over their heads to get banned from the entire 08 championship. The sponsors will now think twice before writing that big check for next year. McLaren might not get all the funds it wants for next year which would result in a less than top car and performance. F1 is a money game and if you don't have the money, you won't play the game.
The door is not yet shut on the case and thats why Ron D is not happy. This is probably the best case scenario as ferrari by default have the upper hand in the (we have been hard done to stakes) if ferrari lose WDC. There will be a cloud hanging over Mclaren for the rest of the season, combined with the danger of something or somebody crawling out of the woodwork with more..
There is a deep insight here. The real penalty may be in the division of wealth to come. The underdog teams have long complained that they have never gotten enough of a fair share to ever compete - maybe somebody is in for a little sample of sitting in the corner for a season or two. But I think this penalty (if it happens) will be unnoticeable to the public - this body does not have the courage to take a stand, as was amply demonstrated today.
+1 Even though Mcl have Vodafone locked-in for another two years (?) I bet dollars to donuts that there are mutual "get-out" clauses if either party f^&ks up ("brings the team/sponsor into disrepute" stuff) and they may just bail out. It would be way cool seeing Lucifer struggling the way Sir Frank did in the early days Cheers, Ian
I don't think that's true - IF they had found *evidence* they can be pretty harsh with the penalties - You don't want to mess with Max......
Does anyone know exactly what it is that the FIA determined is a violation of the regulation? Is it Coughlan's possession of the documents or McLaren not reporting his possession of them? If it is the former, then the FIA must have concluded that McLaren could not have prevented him from gaining them if they had no knowledge of his intent. And no one has any reason for complaining. If it is the fact that they learned of his possession but did not immediately infrom the FIA, then we can debate the ethics of that decision. Given that the FIA found McLaren guilty of that rule violation but assessed no penalty, and furthermore found that McLaren had not benefitted from any information then it is highly likely the finding is the former. Coughlan had possession of the documents while he was an employee of McLaren, therefore the FIA had to find McLaren guilty based on the letter of the law. That they assessed no penalty indicates that they viewed this violation as simply a technicality otherwise they would have assessed something, would they not? What is clear from the FIA's statement is that in either case, that information was not used in the McLaren nor did it give the team an unfair advantage. So why is it that so many of you seem to think that there is anything wrong with this season's racing? McLaren doesn't have an unfair advantage and Ferrari's season has not been compromised. The rest is just a lot of people here pissing and moaning about nothing.
For these reasons: - FChatter lmpdesigner said it best, that just looking at the design of a competitor would give him helpful clues on how to improve his own design. - Ferrari was the team with the biggest Bridgestone experience. I bet some of that knowledge was in those papers as well. - The document showed Ferrari's racing strategy. So even if the McLaren hasn't been directly influenced in its design, the team most likely profited from this document. And if they say they didn't, well if I were Jean Todt, then I'd ask for a 750 page document from McLaren with every detail from this year.
F*ck Mcl. C'mon Ferrari beat them at the track and claim both championships. There's no better way to cement your superiority as kings of F1 than to beat a team that had a good car to begin with, but also had an insight into the design of your car, and an insight into you're race strategies. Honestly if I we're alonso or hamilton I would think twice before I attempt a pass on the Ferraris. At this point I don't think they would be willing to play nice.
Agreed, F1 is absolutely a money game.... Bernie did not want to offend the Mercedes money and... Mercedes owns what, 40% of McLaren, I don't think they'll starve McLaren for Marks, but Mercedes may move some "Factory Approved" administration people to McLaren, to assist in the daily operations at Woking, just to keep an eye on things.
...dont forget about the future Research and Development...the Vision, the technologies applied to achieve things that now dont exist, but tomorrow might make the tinny difference per lap...reusing energy lost in heat, vibration, composites, who will be next clothing designer after this dreadfull times without Tommy...anything is just advantage to them! not compromised?...duhhhh how about the next racing decade!
I believe McLaren turned over the design notes on their own car during the FIA investigation, does Ferrari have the opportunity to review them as well? What is still unclear from the statement is whether or not Coughlan did in fact share the information with anyone else at McLaren? It may be that the findings are because of Coughlan's possession and McLaren's failure to supervise. I can't help but feel that if Coughlan HAD shown the information to others, then the FIA would have assessed at least some sanction or penalty against McLaren. That they did not suggests to me that it had not been proven that anyone other than Coughlan saw the documents or am I missing something in the FIA's statement? They really don't explain exactly what it is that McLaren had done that is in violation of the sporting regulation?
We had that discussion a while ago and it was reported that at least one other McLaren employee had knowledge of the document.
