Can Mclaren do anything at all to wipe the egg from off there face?

says he with the "chicken little" statement .... glasshouses mate

 

absolute BS !!

if it was illegal and Ferrari knew it and the FIA find out about it then they get fined or lose points as Honda did for the small fuel tank episode a couple of years ago

get your facts right before pontificating rubbish about something you know VERY little about

just another supercillious statement

 

Dennis is now fully implicated and it remains to be seen whether he can weather the fallout.

There is a noteworthy precedent for Civil action in this case for those of you who remember the Lopez Volkswagen scandal of a few years go.

Here's a refresher:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30811F73D5C0C738DDDA80894DF494D81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fL%2fLopez%20de%20Arriortua%2c%20Jose%20Ignacio

Ferrari may even be able to mount a case in the U.S. given that the race in that country has been run and won by Mclaren and some conditions precedent may form sufficient grounds to make a lawsuit actionable.

In any case given the Corporations involved and Dennis' position throughout beginning to unravel, He may have to go.

His significant shareholding in Mclaren International may delay this but his position is not very far from becoming untenable.

 

Ferrari was not charged or found guilty of violating any FIA rules or regulations.

McLaren was charged and found guilty of violating FIA rules and regulations.

There is a fundamental difference in these two conditions, if you can't see the contrast present, I understand the reason for your divergent opinion.

Ferrari did not get shafted, as you so eloquently stated it, but McLaren although guilty as charged, has gotten off, without as much as a slap on the wrist, so far.

 

McLaren should give their car design documents to ferrari or bury their head like the cheaters they are.

 

There seem to be quite a few in here who cant figure out the difference between theft and loyalty, or whats legal or not. Or ethical. Ferrari's wing was NOT illegal, but when brought to the FIA by Mercedes, the FIA made a clarification.

But look, we arent talking about a wing, or a damper, were talking about a top teams entire inner workings, thier strategy, thier technology, all thier engineering, all thier wind tunnel work, all thier plans for the future, all thier testing, and the entire blueprints for thier entire car. About the only thing McLaren didnt have in possession is the car itself. With 60 lap races being won or lost in less that .001 second, that kind of knowledge could give someone a superior advantage, and added technology that could pay dividends well into the future. So much so that all bets are off as to who will win. If I were at Ferrari and had anything to say, it would be to tell FIA, its us or McLaren. Period. And if some of you who say you bought the car for its F1 background dont have the balls to back up Ferrari on this, well, go wave for the McLaren. I didnt buy my Ferrari's for any other reason than that I wanted one. Enzo was winning races and putting his name on the map long before F1 came along. I am sure they will do just fine. have you noticed that even the few years older Ferrari F1 cars are kept under secure wraps? Think about that.

 

Totally agree any information illegally gotten that provides a commercial advantage (lets be blunt) may be subject to civil and or criminal proceedings. END OF STORY

Ferrari are able to go after Mclaren because they illegally found out what their freight rates are; let alone the rest of the STOLEN documents.

 

It's the old "it's the victim's fault" ...

Some have said 'the only thing Mclaren did wrong is getting caught',
so it isn't surprising if some feel that Ferrari should be punished for
complaining about being victimized.

As Seneca has said, it is logical that the illogical should contradict the logical.
FIA - simply logical

 

so...having a nice birthday today?

 

yeah took the QV for a long drive before brekkie and didn't get booked for speeding so can't be too bad

had nothing to do a couple of times so came on here and squawked, as you do

all in good fun, you know how I love RD , plus you didn't answer your phone when I called

 

YOU didn't answer when *I* called!

how's your euro spoiler?

 

love the replies on here. How does this compare to the days of MS at Benetton and the refueling rig scandal where everyone in the team including MS said they just thought it coincidental that they could take on more fuel than anybody else in a shorter period of time. It's a pity FChat wasn't around back then as I'm sure you'd all be calling for him to be stripped of a championship. Or what about the fiasco with the banning of traction control and the large swathes of code that kept disappearing between race finishing and officials getting a lookie at the car. So some employee ran off with some info, everyone whose ever changed jobs has done the same. Are you all saying that when Adrian left designing at Mclaren and headed elsewhere he started with a clean sheet of paper and said "I'm not going to use anything I learn't at my past employer" Pay the guy enough and he won't leave and take important info with him. A large chunk of Ferrari's recent success must the package they offered that kept the upper management of the team together. Obviously that's not happening any more and this is the result.

Anything they do now in the way of civil action is just closing the gate after the horse has bolted. So they up security and try to stop this kind of thing happening again. Any company in IT or defense dept work has the same problems with staff and the risk of their access to information. Knowing how backwards the italians are I'd wager they're about 20 years behind the rest of the world in tech. security and at least this will get Ferrari more aware of information theft.

 

another Kiwi who's lost the plot, look Bruce McLaren is dead, his company sucks, the only champion you got was Denny Hulme and that was because Jack Brabham is a decent bloke and didn't pull team orders .... get back in your box or we'll cut the rope and let you guys float off to Antarctica

 

Do you mean something like this HYPOCRITE???

 

+1, finally somebody who understands F1.

Pete

 

actually no-one here understands F1, Bernie has made the money trail so convoluted that all the CPAs in the world can't work out who owns who, there are so many holding companies and paper businesses that for all I know I could own it .... and if I do .... RD and McL are gone

 

Actually a really, really good punishment for McLaren would be to take all the Vodafone sponsorship money as per the deal at the begining of the year and give it to a third world charity. Thus poor people would benefit (as long as it did not get diverted into buying more weapons ...) and McLaren would have little money left to further develop their car for the rest of the season. Also Vodafone could make postive publicity about their involvement with such a large donation to a charity.

The only issue that remains though is what I have been discussing here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136929978&postcount=46, ie. teams now have a path to nullify competitors for the season and the legal mind field for proving cheating, etc.

Pete

 

i agree.
BUT also how can Mclaren be held responsible for the action of one of their employees either ?

bottom line.
if your going to make one team responsible for their employees then you need to make all teams responsible for their employees.

 

NO response any longer needed for this sort of irrational statement.

 

so in other words you cant justify your own opinion - nice one.

 

There are many things that happened over the years in F1 and it all has to do with equalizing things so that they can make more money. I guess you dont remember the one tire rule 2 years ago that was brought in to slow down Ferrari. Ploblem is that is completely stopped them so out went that rule. (BTW this was Alonsos free WDC)
The problem I have with the FIA is that they just want to keep things even at all costs. If the McCheaters were way out in front then you can be sure that there would have been a penalty. But they are not and the WMSC is so afraid of their ruling that they left the door open just to see what kind of repercusion their stupid decision would have.
Sorry but this has no comparison to one switching jobs. When important data is at risk and someones contract is soon to be ended, then those empoloyees are moved to less sensitive areas for the remainder of their contracts so that they are no longer involved in future plans and development. This is what Ferrari did with Stepney. But what Stepney did was way beyond what any company would have expected and that was breaking the law. Worse was that the info was sold to the competition and the ruling bodies did nothing but find them guilty all in the name of keeping things even on the track. Big mistake that will bite many in the arse in the future.
If you think the Italians are backwards then maybe you should look where your living. Remember that a country has to have a lot of daily transactions in order to have any theft. Last time I looked I didnt see NZ in the G8. PS Does anyone know if Chaos is out of school yet?

 

oh look another insult.
try actually justifying your thoughts and theories, if you can - not simply slating anyone whose is more intelligent than yourself.
if you cant manage this then then shut up and learn from your betters.

 

I made this poitn before the start of the season. There was a lot of debate on how damaging the loss of Newey would be to McLaren but I pointed out that I thought the loss of Brawn and Byrne would have just as large an impact on Ferrari.

I think we are starting to see a return to the Ferrari hierarchy of old, with all the behind-the-scenes politicking and backstabbing. This would never have happened had Brawn still been in charge. I fear for Ferrari's future prospects if they don't bring him back as Team Principal.

 

How is Ferrari being responsible for Stepney the same as McLaren being responsible for Coughland? Let's say my son gives my house keys to my neighbor's son and my neighbor's son rips me off. You're saying that if my neighbor gets punished for the theft, so should I. That doesn't seem to make sense.

 

Man you guys simply are dense. Sorry to insult but your example above is no where near the same.

Ferrari did NOT give the information to Stepney to do what he pleased. Stepney BROKE company rules and IP law by STEALING information from his employer. Thus Ferrari is responsible to some degree for not having proper processes in place for controlling it's employees.

Just imagine if your Doctor had a secretary and that secretary gave YOUR personal information to a news paper. You would be rightly pissed with the Doctor wouldn't you, because the Doctor should have appropriate processes in place to ensure that cannot happen, after all it's the Doctors company.

Now yes a company cannot stop every incident ... but neither can McLaren. The only thing McLaren did wrong is not running straight to the FIA, but we do not know what and when they knew, etc. All we know is they knew about the floor ... that might have been via a phone call leak AND that happens ALL THE TIME in motorsport!
Pete