Can Mclaren do anything at all to wipe the egg from off there face?

no, phone leaks were fixed in version E.164 of the code

phone call violations are a different matter, not even fixed with "firewalls" , apparently

 

Pete, your example is flawed. The correct comparison is if the Doctor's secretary gave HIS OWN information to the press, not a third party's. Does that then mean the Doctor would be rightly pissed AT HIMSELF for not having appropriate security???

I agree with you that had Ferrari been more careful with their info, we wouldn't have this mess in the first place. But some people here are suggesting that if McLaren should be punished for the actions of their employee, so should Ferrari and that is just plain wrong.

 

Agree.

What person broke the IP law?

Stepney, and last time I looked he worked for Ferrari.

Stepney is rightly being sued by Ferrari because IP law is outside of the sport of motorracing.


Regarding McLaren, we only believe the COMPANY McLaren knew about the data before they acted because of the Ferrari floor issue at Melbourne GP. Now we also know that Stepney rang Coughlan about the floor and McLaren raised the protest. This is usual way of getting information about another teams car and while morally wrong not breaking any rules.

As far as we know McLaren the COMPANY has done everything by the books and involved the FIA as soon as they found out about the documents at Coughan's home. The only negative is that McLaren personal told him to destroy them ... should have been given to the FIA.

The only reason you feel Ferrari should not be punished is because they are the loser in this situation, but they also started it. They should have dismissed Stepney instead of stuffing/playing with his career for a year. While I do not agree with what Stepney did, I'd be one very upset person if a company I worked for did what Ferrari did to him. Not right at all.


In the end I personally see the same errors with both companies, just one is on the benefit side ... pretty hard to punish that when, as I have said before, they all steal information from each other all the time.

Remember when Renault came out with the pneumatic valve control system ... did not take very long for the other teams to copy that did it?. They did not develop their own systems without a heck of a lot of "borrowed" Renault info.
Pete

 

"Ferrari chiefs plan to escalate the espionage scandal even further by commencing legal action against McLaren, according to latest reports from Italy.

Following the World Motor Sport Council's controversial acquittal of Woking based McLaren last Thursday, a spokesman for Ferrari on Monday confirmed that FIA rules do not allow an appeal to be sought.

The spokesman told the BBC, however, that the Maranello based team - angry that its title rival was not penalised for possessing secret Ferrari information - was 'evaluating all possible options' in the wake of the Paris hearing.

La Gazzetta dello Sport is now reporting that Ferrari plan to submit a request for prosecution with the legal authorities in Modena.


The Italian sports daily said the six-page complaint would be lodged on Tuesday morning.

Ferrari is already pursuing legal action in Italy against sacked employee Nigel Stepney, and in England against suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan for receiving the 780 pages of Ferrari secrets.

Ferrari would not confirm the news."

 

The more I think about this the more I agree with the FIA's ruling OR we should just call this year off and just do demonstation races for the rest of the year, with no WDC and WC.

It's a complete mess and whatever they do or happens this season is fncked.

Atleast with demonstration races we the spectators will win as the racing will be fiece.

Roll on next year.
Pete

 

well you can get upset all you like but if you don't get what you want and you feel aggrieved then you just move on or try harder to get what you want from the company you are working for, you don't sabotage the company by stealing their information.

And just what have Ferrari done to him that makes them such a bad employer ?

He didn't want to travel anymore so they gave him a backstage job, what a vicious thing to do ... and then they let him have a holiday in the middle of the racing season .... the cads, and he is being followed by cars in ITALY with Italian numberplates, is there no end to the barbaric crucifying of poor old Nigel

 

Or by embroiling your employer in a scandal of your own making?

 

John,

I didn't mean that this should be taken into account by the FIA or anything, just Ferrari played their cards wrong with a whinge POM. What honestly did they think he was going to do?, he's English ...

Should have whacked him like you said

Anyway F1 is fncked this year ... might give up and watch Aussie V8 crapocars. The only good thing is poor young LH will have his first season tarnished ... what a shame, gee Brundle will just about cry into microphone . It would have done him no good to win his first season anyway.
Pete

 

Pete, you shouldn't mention whinging poms here, they get all upset and chuck their rattles out of the pram

Don't bother with the commonwhores or foulcoons, they're as bad as NASCAR and appeal to the redneck brigade

Also agreed on the Brundle/Allen crying game, those guys make me sick with the parochial chanting about LH ALL the time !!! Even my wife who has only been watching F1 for 15 years is getting sick of the LH cheer squad, we almost want Murray back ... almost

 

Some of you McLaren backers really kill me. I've been reading the same stupid replys from the same 5 or 6 idiots on 10 different threads now. I'm sick of hearing it, but still want to read about the thoughts of others that care about the mark as I do.

Loughlin was the head designer. Had McLaren not wanted to accept the Ferrari info from contaminating their position of holiness, they would have immediately fired him when they found he had taken possession of the info. That would have truly shown their true allegiance to the truth. I personally think it was too easy for everyone to say "get rid of the info" (wink,wink) and then they could not feel responsible.

Ask any designer or engineer if they were head designer and had the opponents or competing companies full data of specs and sales strategy etc (engine, tires aerodynamics, fuel use for pit strategy etc.) whether they could not have it effect their judgement and in NO way be included in thought process even subliminally. Had Loughlin been a secretary I would say give them the benefit of the doubt but the man was HEAD DESIGNER for God's sake.

I asked six different designers and decision makers at a couple different companies that I deal with and most just laughed and asked if I was kidding or something similar.

If you guys dislike Ferrari so much (you'll never convince me you don't) why don't you just go play on some McLaren site and stop irritating everyone that truly loves these cars. Please just sell the damn car if you really have them and go buy a Lambo or something else.(no offense, I love Lambos)

And yes, I'll come out and be the one to finally say go away because I think you're just trying to p*ss everyone here off. I can only think you don't understand the passion some people have for these cars or you would understand that what you say is like critisizing someones family to some enthusiasts. So What!!! Who the hell are you to pass judgement about the way I or others can feel about something. Remember this is a FERRARI site. Some of you guys (and you know who you are) are like that one *sshole that we all hate to see show up at a party. We know you're just going to open your big obnoxious mouth and ruin it for everyone else.

Go ahead flame my *ss, I've got my nomex on.

 

did MS not trash his and Ferrari's image in the 2006 Monaco GP with his qualifying move?

 

So Bob if McLaren are removed from this years WDC and Ferrari stroll in for another boring win are you going to be really happy?

Imperial would have been because he didn't care HOW they won as long as they won. Me personally I want Ferrari to win, but I want it to involve RACING!!!!

Thus this season is fncked. Think of it from poor Massa and Kimi's position. If they win their first WDC and McLaren aren't there to make it a race ... how hollow that would feel. Every other team simply sncks.

I now think again the best action is for the FIA to declare this year null and void!. Thank you very much McLaren, Stepney, Coughlan and any other bastard involved.
Pete

 

I thought so, but I don't bleed Ferrari "as long as it is my way" blood.

Some here would like to see Ferrari only race themselves ... sounds a lot like wanking to me. Enzo liked racing, and racing involves good competition. Like it or not without McLaren and Renault, Ferrari have been winning nothing for the last few years ...
Pete

 

you and me both Bob, mines triple layered BTW

I want Impy back, Ferrari 1-2

 

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Bill,

You came out with guns blazing on another thread, then I countered with facts to your emotional ranting. The comment below about your tinfoil hat - well, if you really think Bernie orchestrated the whole McLaren/Ferrari resolution through the FIA then the comment is apt. It it hurts your feelings when someone challenges your BS, then you ought to develop thicker skin. Not everyone sees things your way, and those that do not are not poop-stirrers. As a matter of fact, you could go read my very vocal support of Schumi when he parked it in Rascasse a while back.

 

"chicken little" is a descriptor. "you are a f-ing idiot and should leave this site you moron" is quite different. I have no problem if someone wants to say I am "chicken little", but if someone wants to say I am a moron/idiot and have no business here, then I think they pretty much just showed their true colors.

You dont have to agree, but that's how I see it.

 

So are you suggesting the FIA banned it because it was legal? Come on - who are you trying to kid? There was the letter of the law and the intent of the law. Ferrari possibly complied with the letter of the law, but they certainly did not comply with the intent. When it was pointed out to the FIA that floorboards that move that can produce an advantage were passing their scrutiny, they modified their testing procedures to ensure the intent of the rule was maintained.

The only other conclusion is that the FIA is in the pocket of McLaren and they are just out to get Ferrari. If you want to make that claim, then you should ask Bill to borrow one of his tinfoil hats. Or you should just read up on it and learn the truth behind it before saying those who dont agree with your myopic view dont know what they are talking about.

 

I said I was passing judgement because it is a Ferrari site. I was talking about coming on here purely to incite bad feelings. You have a right to your opinion I just believe a few of you guys are just mean spirited against something I feel very strongly about.

I am a photojournalist and live near Philadelphia so I shoot the Eagles regularly and you are just like the guys that sit in the most rabid eagles section in a NY Giants jersey and wonder why someone pelts them in the back of the head with a beer. Personally I wouldn't do it because you would be a waste of a good beer IMHO. Anyone that has been reading your posts for a while knows that is all you and a few others care about on here.

I happen to like McLarens, although I am a great fan of Alonso's racing ability, I don't like his attitude much. I have said before that I think Hamilton is the real deal and only wish I could see him against Schumacher a few years ago.

I also want to see great racing, but fairly docking McLaren some points to make up for the wrong that was done Ferrari by having all their inside info would not change the racing. I think it would only make it more exciting. I wouldn't want to see Ferrari given the lead. I think Hamilton should be leading, even though the lack of firsts, his consistency has been amazing. It is a shame, but the racing results while he and Alonso were driving will always be questioned because without the Ferrari info the McLarens MIGHT not have been in the hunt. I personally believe they would have been doing well, but with the very slight advantage during qualifying the whole series could be going the other way. Who knows? THe fact is though that McLaren had the info. The one person that could have made the biggest difference by possessing that info WAS the one person that had it. The tire info alone that Ferrari had built up over the years while McLaren was starting from scratch could have made the difference in a couple of wins .

 

Bill,

My point all along is that you cannot simply make a black-and-white condition and say that any violation of the rules MUST have a strict penalty. Some here would argue that McLaren was found guilty, and therefore <insert penalty here>, where the penalty ranges from points deductions to exclusion from the season. I think that is an overly harsh and extremely biased position. I have vociferously defended Ferrari on this forum MANY times - but I call it like I see it, whether Ferrari is right or whether they are wrong.

Yes, Ferrari was wronged in this case. I do not think they should be in any way penalized for Stepney having gotten the info - to assert such is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to suggest McLaren should be held accountable for Coughlan. The root of the argument against McLaren is pure supposition - supposition that they "must have" used the information. If I am pulled over with ten kilos of coke in my trunk, I can be charged with intent to distribute. I cannot be charged with distribution unless they know I did such. Fortunately for McLaren, there is no rule about "intent to use illegal information", there is only the use of it. There is no proof that McLaren used it, and therefore the punishment is very clear. They still violated the rule in that they didn't turn in Coughlan. What price should they pay for that? I think the price they paid is a fair one. If PROOF comes about of something more sinister, then so be it - exclude them from the season and/or next - that would be fair. But short of such proof, its a dead issue.

Or, like some on here, we can believe the FIA is just out to get Ferrari, is in the pocket of Bernie or Ron, or that there was some financial payoff, etc. I think all of that is ridiculous and purely invented by folks to justify their overly harsh opinion of what should happen to Mac.

So until proof comes out, the punishment was just. Absent further information, the claims of what should happen to Mac are based purely on peoples (mis)information about what McLaren "may" have done but might not have.

In any court, proof is required and innocence is presumed. Just because they had access to the info, doesn't mean they should be burned at the stake. And if they had a leg up on calling out Ferrari on the illegal floors, well, Ferrari just got caught - yeah they got out-cheated if you like, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over that.

 

I totaly agree with you. There are a few idiots who have been coming on here and pretending to be Ferrari fans when we all know exactly where they lay. Some even pretend to own the great car. They dont fool anyone and I wish the moderators would just ban these idiot for good as they are the ones creating all the crap here. The one guy has insulted more people than he has watched races. What do the moderators think we are going to do? Sit back and take the BS these guys come up with. You guys should do yourself a favour and go to a bank and attempt to get a loan and buy a Ferrari. You will fall in love and when you read back your post you will vomit as I do when I read the rubbish you guys write. PS they cant go to a McCheater site becuase there probably isnt an F1 site dedicated to them. Most people own the car as well as follow them in F1. How many people actually own a Mclaren? Are they just about due to change engine suppliers anyway? They usually do that every 8 years or so. Oh but wait they are doing something different this time. They are going to steal someone elses idea......nice try.

 

a lot of supposition on your part there, the bottomline which you seem to overlook is that IF the floorboard WAS illegal then they WOULD have penalised them

what they did was pass a clarification on the movement of the floorboard up AND DOWN which had not been previously in the rules, this happens about 10 times per year according to Charlie Whiting

As for your other dribble about the FIA, you are just making your own stories up as you go now so it all fits because I have never said the FIA was in McL pocket but you go ahead, it suits your invalid argument

 

Easy there cowboy, the points about the FIA being in the pocket of Bernie/Ferrari/McLaren were said on this site, I don't believe I attributed them to you, but I am stating that if you feel there was some conspiracy to hold back Ferrari, then I think such claims are silly. Numerous teams have been caught out by "clarifications" over the years. If you recall, the Michelin tires were subject to just such an occurence, because the rules only stated the max size during measurement which was stationary. During use they grew - it was obviously contrary to the intent of the rules and I don't think anyone felt bad for Michelin when a stop was put to it. Same with Ferrari - it was obviously against the intent of the rules and it's banning was not some cospiracy against Ferrari, but a technicality loophole being closed. Sort of like when your mom tells you to stop hitting your sister and you then just start throwing popcorn at her and say "but MOM, I *didn't* hit her, the popcorn did". We all know Mom's reaction to that weak argument.

As for whether it was illegal, it was - they clarified the rule, making it illegal. Because it was somewhat of a technical loophole they exploited, it was closed and Ferrari had to change it, lest they be deemed to run illegal equipment from that point on. Just like the Michelin tires - they tightened up the rules making the tires illegal. Breaking of the rules does not always result in a penalty - just like when Ferrari was deemed to be running blatantly illegal bodywork on their cars in 1999. The FIA found that the bodywork was illegal, but no advantage was gained, so they let it slide. Thats a factual account and you ought to look it up. Just like McLaren broke the rules by having access to Ferrari IP, but since no advantage was gained, they were found guilty but no penalty was imposed. If new info comes to light, they WILL be penalized. Just like if new info came to light in 1999 that the illegal bodywork DID help the Ferraris, they would have been penalized heavily too. No bias, just a reasonable interpretation of the rules as they apply to the situation at hand.

Same thing. One in Ferraris favor, one not in their favor. No more of a conspiracy against Ferrari now than it was a conspiracy against Michelin back then. McLaren is no more to blame for raising the issue than Ferrari was back then for raising the Michelin tire-size issue. Its just racing.

 

As have I, Mike. Many of these supposed "tifosi" were among those calling for Kimi's head early in the season. I too have defended Ferrari on this site but that fact is conveniently forgotten when it suits.

+1

I agree completely. Same thing as I have been saying for weeks and for that you and I get branded McLaren apologists. It is one thing to be a Ferrari supporter (which we ALL are here), it is quite another to be blinded by partisanship to the exclusion of objectivity and reason.