Murcie on some regards is heavy. But, lets look at the numbers. The 599 is no slouch either. 3722lbs is not light weight.... Lp640 3671lbs. And the lp is with 4wd... The catalyst I imagine is used as part of the crash zone and might be necessary... Wheels: yes. cast aluminum is not the lightest Seats: yes. but might have something to do with roll over protection? I honestly think that it is extremely tough to make a light weight car and stick within a certain price range. Ferrari has that weight and thats with an aluminum chassis, lightweight wheels, 2wd... and an enzo derive engine... Now if they are not able to lighten up the car, I would imagine lamborghini would have just as much frustration trying to do the same... Bottom line is a v-12 never was intended to be for a super light weight... Yes, with an obsession to weight it is achievable... But, honestly, the lotus or even corvette with fewer cylinders can be just as fast and with lighter weight.... and at a cheaper price... So why try to be something its not... A v-12 car is supposed to be medium to heavy but puts out gobs of power. thats always been the case throughout the automotive history...
One what? Don't tell me someone actually stepped up for that "walletectomy". The fastest bundle of plastic and pop-rivets I've ever driven but I wouldn't own one.
Just because its not fiero based or anything like that doesn't rule out the fact that it is a kitcar. Think of it as a turnkey.
Toyota will be the death of Lamborghini for sure because then you'll see a Lamborghini/Toyota racing team as well as a couple Lamborghini powered Toyotas which will be horrible and you know it. Toyota is a POS id much rather have Lamborghini owned by GM than any japanse company.
You still haven't explained why you think it's a kitcar. Just because of the engine? What about the Bentleys and Roll Royces with BMW engines? All they did was make the rolling chassis and BMW gave them the engines. What about the Range Rovers made in 2003 and 2004? They have BMW engines, electronics, interior accessories, etc. All Land Rover did was make the rolling chassis and BMW provided the rest. What about RUF? They buy a bare chassis and parts from Porsche. Are they a kitcar company?
Oh, so this is your criteria? If it's allowed in Kitcar Magazine (does that **** even exist?!?!), than it's a kit. If it's not allowed in the magazine, than it's fake? Are you serious? How old are you?
..because Italian and American's coming together produce such wonderful results... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_TC_by_Maserati All kidding aside, Chrysler used to own Lamborghini which brought to us the beloved Diablo, but I don't think Japanese ownership would hurt the brand.
Whose talking about the 599? Not me, it's a piggish too. Actually the LP640 tips the scales at over 4,000lbs despite any 'official' literature. Hence my pig comment. If it was actually 3600lbs with all fluids in place (sans any persons) that would be great, but, it's not the case. bah. -J p.s. the seats are not for roll over protection and the cats are not part of the crumple zone, they are 'weaved' into the bay, not like the earlier Diablos with a huge box behind the motor. image:
And that's automatically bad? Need I remind you even the "almighty" McLaren ran next to a Japanese company, aka Honda for several years and was highly successful. Would you feel the McLaren was any less of a supercar had Honda really gone ahead and built the engine instead of BMW, and still achieved the same results?
Domenic, Following your posts I see you try to do a good job rationalizing everything. But the current situation with Lamborghini cant be explained away to the satisfaction of people on this very thread who have owned Lamborghinis for decades (thus feel they are shareholders at least in the company's product) and have seen the company change direction to their dislike. Its hard for you to rationalize with someone who has purchased a dozen or so cars from a company he has revered, only to see the company go in a direction that strays away from the very ideals he bought into. And I must beg to ask of you: where on earth do you get your statistics?? BOTH Car & Driver and Road & Track (independent testing authorities second to none Im sure we will all agree) concurr that the LP640 weighs approx 4,160 lbs. All I can say is: Oink, oink... Only someone new to Lamborghini will not know that the company has a long tradition of slight exaggeration when it comes to the brochures and press releases it puts out. And who is to blame if 4wd is helps cause the piggish weight? I dont remember the company caring to find out if most drivers in dry & sunny southwestern USA (presumably a major market for the company) even wanted 4wd.... LOL. Cmon Domenic, no slick answers here, the company has a serious identity & directional crises to deal with, not to mention better PR manners towards its paying long-term customers with both new and old cars. Those are just the facts. Joe www.joesackey.com
The LP 640 is 4000lbs +. Doesn't mean it's a bad car but its a damn pig. Listen, Ferrari is light years ahead of Lamborghini. You can try to be a homer ect, ect. The 599 is a better car than the 640. Does it look as good? NO. But that is it. Are there 30 599's sitting on show room floors? No. Just look at the transmission package, the 599 shifts in 100 milliseconds the 640 in maybe< maybe 200. A huge difference. The Murcie E-gear was never developed for the car, the Murcie is a tube frame where the 599 is space frame, it goes on and on. Old, Old, Old, is well..old. We will see if Audi/VW steps up or not. Keith
Whoa joe, lets not get in a twist here... I simply went and got the stats from car & driver.com... Just check out their buying guide... http://www.caranddriver.com/carspecs/2007-ferrari-599gtb_fiorano/ferrari_599gtb_fiorano/6846-599GTBFiorano.html http://www.caranddriver.com/carspecs/2007-lamborghini-murcielago/lamborghini_murcielago_lp640/6685-MURCIELAGOLP640V1265Liter.html?selMake=FERRARI http://www.caranddriver.com/carspecs/2007-lamborghini-murcielago/lamborghini_murcielago_lp640/6685-MURCIELAGOLP640V1265Liter.html Ok so perhaps I know that there are always exaggerations to everything...but then again, many companies do that... And of course i also know enough that special cars were made by Lamborghini for journalists some time ago.... But to be fair, considering the addtional equipment Lamborghini is carrying... not too far off from a much newer Ferrari chassis that is supposed to be way advanced... That in itself should be a testament of the chassis since we can trace back to being a derivative of the diablo chassis.... Joe, I am not trying to provide any slick answers to anyone... Bottom line is perhaps we just need to be happy for the marque existing rather than always on the verge of financial disaster. Frankly, I am tired of seeing my favorite marque like that and just feel that instead of us complaining about all that is bad about the company, we need to be more positive about the marque... True, perhaps the company has identity and directional crisis.. but then again, it was in the 80s that we saw ferrari engines in lancia themas.... So perhaps its just a phase that many companies go through?? And true... pr people manners sometimes are a bit lacking... but I am sure Enzo Ferrari wasnt always polite... Ultimately,the sure thing I know is that companies change.. and despite the fact that perhaps its not changing to what you hope it would be, it is still changing.. And to me, I agree that the changes now might not be quite true to the original marque's intent, but lets give them some time.... give them a chance... and remain supportive of the marque... Honestly, my posts is not so much rationalizing but trying to be positive about the marque. So is being positive about the marque wrong? And for the record, I love the old lambos just as much if not more than the newer cars... Dominic
man joe.. u still up at this hour? lol. Looks like I am not the only night owl... Anycase, whether I am right or wrong about weight isnt really the issue.. its just that people talk about how the lp is so heavy but never see that the ferrari 599 if laden with 4wd would probably be similar in weight... thats all. Ok complaining might be too harsh.lol... But if thats the case, I think we should put that constructive criticism to good use and put up some petition to lamborghini. A formal endorsement by current owners of old/ new vehicles to let them know what is wrong now and what should be corrected... Let them know that people who supported the marque are not too happy... Maybe someone could put up a poll and then forward the link to the factory?
whoopededoo. look up Noble Automotive on their website and wiki entry. "Noble is a low-production British sports car company" in laymans terms that means theyre a registered manufacturer of completed automobiles. now in the US small manufacturers may have to be a bit creative, but please note that the designs have been (assigned) to a 3rd party - if they choose to make them in kit form does not mean that Noble themselves are a kitcar company. In fact the models now sold by 1G Racing (M12 and M400) are old models and no longer produced under the Noble name. please note that in the past Lee Noble has produced some kit cars - the Ultima is a Lee Noble design (Noble sold the company some time ago) he also produced a P4 replica and a lotus replica, plus several other designs - NONE of these were produced by the company trading today. Lee Noble was also a partner in Ascari Cars and designed the Ascari Ecosse, he later sold his share in Ascari. After all this Lee Noble set up Noble Automotive - the current company, a manufacturer of complete, warrantied and at least European compliant vehicles.
your jumping to massive conclusions based on nothing but a few forum posts - whilst your entitled to your opinion (as indeed is everyone) when you base that opinion on nothing but conjecture its worthless. Joe contributes a lot to this forum, and his knowledge is extensive - more than can be said for most other posters.
another pointless post based on nothing but conjecture put across as fact. and I'm not quite sure why you feel an American company would be any better than Japanese one ??? what Lamborghini need (imo) is an injection of cash for development and a policy of highly limited interference by the parent. This should allow Lambo to flourish and be able release new products whilst retaining an identity of its own. iirc Lotus has been owned by quite a few concerns and is allowed to get on with its own work and pays its way by doing R&D stuff for parent and clients.
Domenic, I think the owners are speaking. There are lots of brand new LP640's sitting at dealers. Those would be 07's and now 08's are coming. And don't get me wrong here, because I'm a huge LP640 fan. But, most people who buy $400K cars are knowledgeable about the car market. Someone who buys a 640 knows damn well he's going to lose 100K real quick. That's a big hit. The car does not distinguish itself enough from the previous Murcie for most buyers to look at it and say, "Wow, this is $200K better than a 2005 with a few miles" Yes, diehards will, but that is a very slim percentage of buyers. Keith
